[zybar]

During the course of reading lots of the RMAF show coverage, you see people (enthusiasts, professionals, and everybody in between) make comments about how good or bad component x in a given room sounds.  I just don't get this...   

While I think there is value in having people comment on the overall performance of the system in the room and whether they enjoyed it or not, I am struggling to find value in comments on the individual components that make up the system.  When you don't know all of the gear, the room, etc...how can a person possibly know the exact impact a specific component is having?  Unless there was some type of A/B or comparison in room, it just seems like any talk (positive or negative) on a component in a show environment is useless.

Am I missing something here?

What does everybody think?

George

[jtwrace]

GREAT post!

I think you can hear speakers but that's about it.  Otherwise it's the full system which includes the room.

[poseidonsvoice]

Agreed wholeheartedly. The only reviews I can take seriously are in those rooms I'm familiar with (a few close colleagues) and if you only change one component, etc...but since I'm not familiar with any of the rooms at any 'SHOW', it is...useless. THE reason I look at the RMAF circle/forum is to:

1) Get ideas for my next DIY, especially enclosures and
2) Look at Audio Porn!

 

Anand.

[SoCalWJS]

Only when a component or cable is swapped out - which some of the rooms were doing. Audioquest. Synergistic Research. Amps gave way in some rooms. Speakers in others.


Other than that, I have to agree that the overwhelming distinctive sound that one hears in any given room is the interaction of the speaker, the room, and any acoustical treatment.

[konut]

Only when reviews contain the complete signal chain can components be given a context for consideration. It is then possible to postulate if a system was hamstrung, or not, in a certain way. Show comments that only mention an amp or speaker performing in a certain way are all but useless without this context. 

[rollo]

  Good point George. Unless a component is switched during the demo it is impossible to determine what is doing what.
   My goal at a show is seek out products that have potential for sales. I cannot a will not evaluate the component under show conditions. I'll get a good idea .
   If a room sounds very good to me I look at the entire picture. Room treatments, power conditioning, cabling and of course the components. We then get a demo piece and evaluate it in our system. If it passes snuff in our familiar setting  we sell it.
  Once you get past the hype all that matters is the performance in a familiar system. YOURS. Thanks to Tyson and Pez for the photos and their time.


charles
SMA

[saisunil]

If you are into headphones ... I found this person's coverage on head-fi quite useful ...
How one headphone sounded better with one amp vs. the other or with change in source ... of course one does not need room treatments but show settings are less than ideal with all that noise ...
I thought it would be helpful to share this approach of coverage - almost impossible to do that with 2 channel unless someone like DEQX was doing A/B ... or same speaker was used in a different room with different electronics ... some of that was covered here as well 

Very hard to take into account or ignore the power conditioning / cabling / room acoustics / source / break-in ... and much easier to hear speakers / amps etc... Of course some people do not even believe or hear contributions of non-electronics in the system ...
The big question for me is - Is sound / music a physics phenomenon or is it something that gets decoded at the mind level or felt at the heart level or all of above and more that we are yet to discover ... in any case - it is a journey ... let;s make it a joyous one ...
CheersSunil.
PS: Regardless folks did an amazing job with coverage ...Stereophile had a different flavor ... more a matter of fact ...   

[zybar]

GREAT post!

I think you can hear speakers but that's about it.  Otherwise it's the full system which includes the room.

Even speakers can be tricky...

A few years back myself and two audio friends all bought Silverline Sonata II speakers.  All of us were fairly knowledgeable when it came to selecting equipment and how to setup a system properly.  Yet this exact same speaker went from sounding very good to ok to almost unlistenable depending on which setup we listened to it in.  We all had associated gear around the same price point and we all had good rooms for audio; yet there was this huge difference in performance of the one constant - the speaker.

I think I read of similar reactions to the Vandy 7's at the show this year.  Some people thought they sounded great in one room and only ok in another.

George

[WGH]

I either "like" a room or "not like" a room but trying to figure out what component makes a room sound good or bad is impossible for me. Even rooms that use the same speaker and different electronics have so many variables that I hesitate to make a definitive opinion.

About the only thing I am able to discern is how loud a component can play before it sounds shrill or starts to distort. Legacy speakers can play very, very loud while remaining clear, bookshelf speakers - not so loud.

[bladesmith]

The variables in sound are infinite. And even if that were not true. The variables in the perception/reception of sound through our hearing is infinite.

How can it be defined ?

V...

[jtwrace]

I think I read of similar reactions to the Vandy 7's at the show this year.  Some people thought they sounded great in one room and only ok in another.

George

Right.  The difference is the room though.  I'd like to think that with as much measuring that I've done I can hear what a good and bad room sounds like.  Acoustically speaking. 

Have you measured your system for optimal setup?  Just curious or do I need to come to "B" land?   

[bladesmith]

Where did you hear the speakers originally, what location ?

In turn, where are you listening to them now..?

Atmospheric pressures play a large roll in how we receive/perceive sounds..(not only the room acoustics.)

Because the atmospheric pressures effect our ears/hearing..And the actual movement of the driver..

V..

[nrenter]

You can't.

To take this even a step farther...can you really understand how a system really "sounds" without understanding the effects of multiple iterations of physical placement parameters?

Over the past few days, I've been moving my speakers and subs (+) or (-) 2" and can completely change the sound character. Moving the speakers 2" closer together focuses the sounds stage. Moving the speakers 2" farther apart exaggerates the stereo imaging. I prefer the latter, but that doesn't mean it's "right" or that it "sounds better". My wife prefers the former. I could convince you that I swapped a component to achieve that change.

System auditions are fun, but provide little insight into anything other than the immediate experience.

[bladesmith]

 God bless those guys/gals that put on those shows for everyone, I am sure it is a real challenge to make it all happen..

 But, if you audition a pair of speakers in Denver, a mile high, and then get a pair home and expect them to sound the same. They just won't. Especially if you live at sea level.

 You could get them home and they might sound better than you even imagined. That's what makes this interesting.

V..

(Auditioning a set of speaker in your home is the only way to get an accurate experience.)

[Pez]

You absolutely can judge individual components. Some manufacturers like nordost actually force you to hear the difference between many of their products at the show. Also if you are familiar with setups from one year to the next and the manufacturer makes a few changes often it is those few changes that make huge differences. Last year the Daedalus room was pretty bad for most of the show, the problem was pretty clearly the Atmasphere amps. This year the Daedalus room was better than ever with new modwright amp and first Sound preamp. Clearly those were the largest contributing factors to the increase in sound quality albeit the whole system was excellent from the bolder modded touch to the Ulysses and bow speaker setup.

This year I called it perfectly in the Purity / VSA room. The McCalister amps were most definitely the problem in that room. I could tell it was the individual component and not the system as a whole that was the problem. I even said as much prior to the discovery by Bill et al that the amps were indeed the issue and came to the very same conclusion after closer investigation.

You become familiar with many of the vendors 'house sound' and based on that combined with a solid foundation of experience with a lot of equipment will allow a truly discerning ear to judge individual components.

[zybar]

You absolutely can judge individual components. Some manufacturers like nordost actually force you to hear the difference between many of their products at the show. Also if you are familiar with setups from one year to the next and the manufacturer makes a few changes often it is those few changes that make huge differences. Last year the Daedalus room was pretty bad for most of the show, the problem was pretty clearly the Atmasphere amps. This year the Daedalus room was better than ever with new modwright amp and first Sound preamp. Clearly those were the largest contributing factors to the increase in sound quality albeit the whole system was excellent from the bolder modded touch to the Ulysses and bow speaker setup.

This year I called it perfectly in the Purity / VSA room. The McCalister amps were most definitely the problem in that room. I could tell it was the individual component and not the system as a whole that was the problem. I even said as much prior to the discovery by Bill et al that the amps were indeed the issue and came to the very same conclusion after closer investigation.

You become familiar with many of the vendors 'house sound' and based on that combined with a solid foundation of experience with a lot of equipment will allow a truly discerning ear to judge individual components.

You think you can compare components in a meaningful way in different rooms and setups a year apart?    

Study after study (plus personal experience) shows people can't do this days or even hours apart, yet you can do it a year apart?

Sorry, not buying it.

George

[Daedalus Audio]

You absolutely can judge individual components. Some manufacturers like nordost actually force you to hear the difference between many of their products at the show. Also if you are familiar with setups from one year to the next and the manufacturer makes a few changes often it is those few changes that make huge differences. Last year the Daedalus room was pretty bad for most of the show, the problem was pretty clearly the Atmasphere amps. This year the Daedalus room was better than ever with new modwright amp and first Sound preamp. Clearly those were the largest contributing factors to the increase in sound quality albeit the whole system was excellent from the bolder modded touch to the Ulysses and bow speaker setup.

This year I called it perfectly in the Purity / VSA room. The McCalister amps were most definitely the problem in that room. I could tell it was the individual component and not the system as a whole that was the problem. I even said as much prior to the discovery by Bill et al that the amps were indeed the issue and came to the very same conclusion after closer investigation.

You become familiar with many of the vendors 'house sound' and based on that combined with a solid foundation of experience with a lot of equipment will allow a truly discerning ear to judge individual components.

I know that as an exhibitor it can be very very difficult to identify exactly what is going on in my own room ( or a show if doing live sound).  I'll agree that "sometimes" we can identify the individual component problem in a show room situation, BUT it is important to remember that other times we are mistaken in our judgments.
 one example is that many people (some who are very "familiar" with my line) thought my Athena speaker was quite different from the Ulysses, but in fact when in the same room/same gear  there are actually only subtle differences.
above all it is important to remember that there are people behind the gear, real live human beings who often put all they have into making these components, and we should be careful about slamming anyone.
fwiw, last year we had problems with bad tubes and a defective Atmasphere amp, the issue was not Atmasphere amps in general.

thanks,
lou

[jtwrace]

Study after study (plus personal experience) shows people can't do this days or even hours apart, yet you can do it a year apart?

Sorry, not buying it.

George

+1

[DEV]

Study after study (plus personal experience) shows people can't do this days or even hours apart, yet you can do it a year apart?

Sorry, not buying it.

George

I fully agree with statement 

[Tyson]

I can tell you exactly what every component in the system sounded like, in every room, every year, all the way down to the cables and footers.  Because I am just that good