[mcgsxr]

I have recently updated, and upgraded my front end, with an external DAC that I really enjoy.  This has led me to consider what other changes I might affordably make, to build on the improvements I have recently realized.

A query about tubes, and where to use them in the signal path, as a noob, and (of course) on a budget.

My trusty Sugden integrated performs well, but I wonder if separates would bring me closer to my desire to hear overwhelmingly fantastic mids.  I use a powered sub, so I do not expect to suffer much in the way of bass coherence loss (which SOME claim can occur with tube amps vs SS).

So, my goal is to increase the rez of the midrange, and increase the presence of my system.

Would anyone care to chime in with thoughts on

1.  Tube Pre amp, SS amp - perhaps the Audcom, or a used Jolida, or Antique Sound Labs etc for the pre in this configuration.
2.  Tube integrated - perhaps a Jolida, or Antique Sounds Labs etc.
3.  Passive pre, and tube amp - again, the usual used suspects from Agon or here, to fill the roles here.

My question is, which do YOU think would bring me closest to my stated goal of midrange presence?

I recognize in advance, that no one else has heard my system, nor likely understands EXACTLY what I mean by my goal, BUT I am asking for advice here, as I have never owned a tube anything.

My recent improvements via the source, have me thinking down the signal path towards the speakers at the end, and thus I think the tube pre might be the way to start.

HELP!

[gonefishin]

If your unfamiliar with the sound of various components...I would suggest you do nothing.  Well, almost nothing  Do you have any audio shops in your area?  You may want to go there and just listen...and find out what combinations you prefer.  You can also find some audio enthusiasts that live in your area.  Funny thing about this hobby is that audio nutz are just as likely to open their house to you as they are to answer your post.  Ask around.

  What speakers are you using?


  take your time...and have fun>>>>>>>

[mcgsxr]

I am presently using Totem Rokk speakers - small 2 way monitors, with metal dome, and doped paper woofer.  Nakamichi custom sub, driven by 300 wt BASH amp.

There are some high end stores in the Toronto, Ontario area, but I live out in the west end.  

I have heard some tube integrateds that sounded good, but I like to buy second hand, to help offset the cost of the sport.

Good advice about doing next to nothing though, you do raise a really valid point.

So, any fellow Canucks out in the TO area, with tube gear to demo at their place?

Mark

[BikeWNC]

Why don't you check out a few integrated tube amps?  Going to separates will add additional cost in cables.  You don't state your budget so it is hard to recommend particular components.  I will say, IMO, that the smART DIO is on the accurate or cool side of the audio spectrum.  That doesn't make it bad, but it may be that it just doesn't give you the palpability your looking for within the context of your system.  Adding a tube pre would help, but I think that a tube amp would help more.  I think pairing the accurate, dynamic smART DIO with right tube amplification could give what your looking for.  

In my system, I have a tube pre, and can switch between ss and tube amps as I feel the need.  The tube amp gives added dimensionality and palpability to images in the soundstage at the expense of tighter bass and to some extent slam.  

Andy

[Jon L]

"My question is, which do YOU think would bring me closest to my stated goal of midrange presence? "

Perhaps the #1 goal of my Audiophiledom has been what you seek.  I don't much care about bass extension, soundstaging, and many other things other audiophiles are after.  But that palpable, densely solid, 3D midrange that drips with "sex," ooh...it's the reason for being.

Unfortunately, there's no free lunch.  Everything always seems to be give-and-take, compromises, tit-for-tat.  You tune your system to give that nth degree of palpable detail, only to lose some easy listenability with poor recordings.  You tune it for warmth, roundness, and end up losing too much detail, etc, etc.  

People spend lifetimes trying to achieve it without compromising too much on the rest of the sound.  

For you, I wouldn't automatically assume adding a tube pre or tube amp will necessarily give you what you want.  There are plenty of tube gear that sound muddy and bloated, failing to deliver presence worse than solid state.  There are varieties of tubes to contend with, some being more "present" than others.  

Don't rush out and buy a tube gear sight-unseen.  If you are going to do it right, you need to set aside some time period to take every effort to listen to a variety of gear, be it at shops, friends' places, audio gatherings.  And don't just limit it to tube gear, either.  You don't want to be one of those people who go through gear like laundry on Audiogon, do you?

[meilankev]

Mark,

Option 2 or 3.  From my numerous experiences (including yet another A/B test 3 weeks ago), any distinctive tube-like sound resulting from Option 3 is over-stated.

In fact, my friend here (who owns an Odyssey SS preamp) actually bought a $3,500 Cary preamp and a preamp from Conrad-Johnson that was almost twice that price, and felt there was little improvement in his (very impressive) system.  One has already been dumped, and the other is currently up for sale.

I also took my KORA tubed preamp over earlier this month, and he felt that any improvements were equally minimal.  I had to agree.  But (just as expected), inserting a tube power amp into the mix (replacing his Cinenova Grands), well that yielded improvements at many levels.

I admit that most tubed amps will be lacking (relative to like-priced SS amps) in the bass, but since you augment your speakers with a subwoofer, this possible limitation is moot.

Kevin

[mcgsxr]

Thanks to all for the well thought out, and phrased advice.

I will look around and listen, checking back with all of you, once I narrow the field.

A pleasure reading all your comments, thanks again.

Mark

[ken]

You should put the cayin TA-30 on your list of amps to audition  if at all possible  This is a great little tube integrated that plays in pp 30 wpc and in set modes 4 wpc  There have been several reviews on this amp and all have been positive and better yet it  can be had for well under a grand with a couple of paul's mods.   Build quality is first rate and I just love mine. check out his website or call him for details.

www.2baudio.com

Good luck

[Bemopti123]

I have seen a picture and also thought about your system synergies.  Believe it or not, you need to ask yourself whether you enjoy the signal and the sound of your present system.  Are you satisfied about 80% or 90%  A while back, when I first began to seriously venture into Hi end audio....I began with an used amp....A Nakamichi PA-7 paired with a Sonic Frontiers SFL-2 preamp....this combo drove a pair of Gershman Acoustics X-1 monitors, which I still have.  That was back in 2000.  I added a pair of the passive subs that were used as pedestals for the monitors and a very simple tweak, 3 racing cones under the amp as well as a Synergistic research master coupler power cord to the amp.  Wow, that system has the slamm and it made my soul enjoy every single moment I played something with it.....But, I was carried away into an upgrade path that took me to selling the PA-7 and getting a pair of BC-2 monos (rather weak sound refined sounding) that gave way into a Sonic Frontiers Power 2 ( the most expensive, brand new amp product I have ever bought) and furthermore, I got rid of the SFL-2 and got a First Sound Presence Deluxe model I. and on and on....

Guess what?  After about 4 years, all those amps and in contrast to what I have presently, I can still fondly remember the first set up I had.  It had such a synergy even when it was made up of older components and had a low down simplicity that I found out was the key for musicality to happen.

You Sudgen, must produce 25 watts, all class A sound, right?  

The Sudgen along with the Rokks, will be difficult to realistically beat, unless you spend considerable amounts of money in really decent tubed gear.  

I do not want to put people down, but from what I can remember, JOLIDA, I had experienced their first integrated tubed amps, rather unreliable gear back in 1996.  Furthermore, the new wave of Chinese made tubed gear, I simply do not tend to favor too much.  Earlier Jolidas were also Chinese made.  The Antique Sound Labs gear have mixed reviews.

One thing for sure, for what they seem to offer, the Chinese companies are hard to be, but reliability and otherwise, will they equal the resale value of other, more esteemed and time proven gear?

A plunge into tubed territory without a very costly initial investment I would think of:

Aronov integrated (time proven, can be had for around $1000, used)
Anthem model 1 (25 watts per channel all tube integrated can be had for about $500)

the alternative solutions matching these amps are difficult to come by.

If you so decide to purchase a Chinese made integrated, then, remember that the resale value will be rather bad.  You will need to keep it unless you want to unload it for peanuts.

[mcgsxr]

Thanks for your thoughts, I think you raise a couple of excellent points.

I recall that the Sugdedn A28B does work in Class A up to around 25 of it's 45 wpc.  I wonder if that changes in 4 ohm load?  I know that it doubles its' output, but I am not sure how the Class A bias would work.

Your points about selling off pleasing gear, in the hopes of securing better gear are on the money.  Thankfully, I am in a position to not have to sell my Sugden, in order to chase some inexpensive tube dreams.  I guess if I don't love what I buy in tube amp, I can either sell it, or build a second system.

I aspire to build some speakers this summer, as last summer a good friend and I had good success in building him some towers.  I would like to build a set of the Usher 2 ways, and have already purchased the tweeters.  This will obviously make a big change in my system, compared to the Rokk I currently use.

The comments about the Chinese built amps are a valid expression of your experience, but there are certainly an increasing number available, and from different brands - not a guarantee of quality, but an indication that demand is there, and supply is beginning to ramp up to meet it.

I will keep my eyes open for both your suggested amps, and appreciate the information.  I heard a set of SPM-25 mono single ended KT88 amps that I liked, with built in volume control.  All for about $600 US.

Thanks to all for the advice, and thoughts, I appreciate that you would take the time and effort, to assist another in their pursuit of excellence!

mark

[mcrespo71]

If midrange presence is your thing, then I suggest the Conrad Johnson CAV 50 integrated amp.  It has an absolutely glorious midrange and you can find them used on audiogon.  It uses EL34's and puts out 45 watts.

Michael

[Bemopti123]

and selling of gear.  I myself made pair of fullrange Voigt pipes with Fostex drivers about 3 years ago.  Found the experience enlightening.

As long as you do not spend large sums of money in the integrated, I do know think you can go wrong.  Make sure that you get enough watts with the tubed integrated.  

A 25 watt class A integrated produces more current than some tube amps of the same rating.  

People keep stating that 25 watts tube sounds a lot more powerful of 25 watts SS, but then, you will have some tube watts that will be compared to 25 Class A watts, a different sort of beast.

Keep us posted of things go with the hunt and the auditioning of the gear.