[Rob Babcock]

Do any of you guys have any experience with this OS?  I suspect it's probably more secure than Windows (but what isn't?).

[Ferdi]

Hi Rob, don't have any experience with this. However, it is a Linux distribution so in terms of functions and features, it should be on par with other major distros.
You may or may not like the fact that you need to buy it.

Let me know if you are considering alternatives.

Ferdi

[Tonto Yoder]

You might try out a Linux OS by buying a Knoppix CD (about $5).
You boot from the CD, so it takes up no hard drive space and doesn't really interfere with keeping Windows on your computer.

http://www.knopper.net/knoppix/index-en.html

You'd want to upgrade to a REAL linux OS later.

[Rob Babcock]

The idea would be to not keep Windows on my computer.  I wouldn't do this until I buy a second PC, though.  My idea is to have one PC for basically surfing the net, doing email, paying my bills electronically, etc etc.  The second PC would be for burning discs, playing games, etc.  The latter wouldn't be connected to the internet at all- on that one I'd keep Windows, as its laughable security wouldn't be an issue, but the ability to run 99% of the worlds software would!  I don't know if there's a Linux version of Nero 6, Eximius' DVD-A Audio, SureThing, Alcohol 120%, or the other stuff I need.  

In that case, a lite version of Linux would be plenty.  My main aim would be to use Lindows with Firefox to try to make my internet PC as secure as is humanly possible.  I do all my banking and 90% of my financial stuff on the computer, so security is something I'm taking very seriously.

I helped my brother build a 2nd PC about 6 months ago, and while he has Windows on both, the only has one connected to the 'net.  The beauty of that arrangement, aside from security, is that if Big Brother ever decides to allow comanies to snoop around in your machine and delete stuff They don't want you to have (eg copyrighted music or a DVD decrypter), the offline computer would be safe.

In case that seems paranoid, consider that senator Orin Hatch has proposed just such legislation.

[gitarretyp]

If your concern is to increase security, lindows would not be my first choice. Last i heard, lindows sets-up the default user account as root...which is a big security no no. If you just want to try out a good, secure, and easy distro, i would go with mandrake or suse. Once you get more experience, you might try some of the more "advanced" distros like gentoo (my personal favorite), debian, slack, ...

[Tonto Yoder]

The idea would be to not keep Windows on my computer.  I wouldn't do this until I buy a second PC, though. ....

Knoppix would be a temporary fix to try out Linux while keeping Windows as the old standby. Once someone decides to commit to Linux, he might well uninstall  Windows and upgrade to a Linux OS like Mandrake or Fedora.

[bob82274]

Also you would have a hard time finding software called Lindows anymore.  Microsoft won in court that forced Lindows to change their name to Linspire.  Anyway I would say if you are going to have a Linux box and a Windows box then avoid Lindows/Linspire.  Also I would stay away from Red Hat now because they no longer support their desktop versions of Linux.

[Rob Babcock]

Maybe I'm being unnecessarily paranoid- switching to anything-but-IE is probably good enough.  

If I was to go with Lindows/Inspire, what if I changed from the default to Mozilla?  Or what if I went with Linux (non-Red Hat, if needs be) as the OS?  What's the best OS out there is securtity is the only concern?

And please, no wise-asses advising me to switch to a Mac!     That I will not do.  I can't afford a Mac, and I don't want to "learn" how to build one.  I can build a Pentium machine pretty easily by now, but I don't want to dick around with Apple stuff.

[jakepunk]

Linux is your best option given the fact you have ruled out Mac OS X.  Running Mozilla on Windows is a false sense of security.  Yes, you will have a better browser than IE, but you're still running it on an insecure OS.

I have never tried Lindows, but I imagine it's not for you since Lindows is marketed towards the WalMart Homer Simpson crowd, and I doubt you fit into that category.  People argue endlessly about which Linux distro is the best, and I think it's a lot like arguing about the martial arts: everybody thinks their style is the best.  The truth is, the best style is the one you are practicing.  I have been using Redhat since the 4.x days.  Redhat 9.0 is very solid; I'll move to Fedora when the time comes.  I downloaded Fedora Core 2 the other day, and I'll take it for a spin soon.

I am a UNIX black belt, and I suggest you give the Mac a second look.  I'm typing on it now.  You get the meaty BSD core with the sweet Aqua GUI goodness.  It is a joy to use.  I know you won't seriously consider it based on your previous comments, but I am here to say that Mac OS X is ready for prime time.

[brj]

Maybe I'm being unnecessarily paranoid- switching to anything-but-IE is probably good enough.

This is probably true.  Mozilla is a great choice.  Firefox (web browser) and Thunderbird (email client) are just as good.  They share much of the same core technology as Mozilla, but are much lighter-weight apps that can stand alone, compared to Mozilla's more integrated approach.  Opera is another respected web browsing option.

You may know all of this already, but I'd also suggest a router between your computers and your internet connection.  A 4 way Linksys/Netgear/whatever router is fairly cheap these days, and the network address translation provided by a router is a nice first step toward some system security.  In addition, it makes home networking very simple.  There are plenty of software firewall tools for Linux as well.  "Firestarter" is a nice gui frontend (for the GNOME desktop environment) to the iptables packet filtering firewall tool.

If I was to go with Lindows/Inspire, what if I changed from the default to Mozilla?  Or what if I went with Linux (non-Red Hat, if needs be) as the OS?  What's the best OS out there is securtity is the only concern?

Security is a relative thing.  The BSD operating systems - including Mac OS X - are generally considered the most secure, with OpenBSD definitely leading the pack.  The Linux OS's tend to be a step down from the BSD's in overall security, but there can be a lot of overlap that depends on system setup.  For a desktop OS used primarily for web browsing, I'd stick with Linux.  The BSD's are extremely mature, well documented, and have very active, supportive user communities... but despite all of that, Linux has an even larger support base to pull from.

Any of the Linux distros would work, and I'd encourage you to look at Fedora Core 2, SuSE Linux 9.1 Personal, and Mandrake Linux 10.0 as a potential first cut.  Like Linspire, all of these distributions are backed by a company in addition to a user community.  For a first time user, I'd probably lean toward SuSE or Mandrake.  The community supported Fedora Core Linux distributions don't have quite the same level of quality control that the previous, company supported, Redhat releases did.  (Redhat Linux 9.0 was the last supported "free, as in beer" release from Redhat.)

It might also be worth learning a bit about Debian, Gentoo and Knoppix.  If you really want to look at locking down Linux besides the common sense stuff like closing/masking all possible ports, shadow passwords, enforced ssh/scp use, etc., you can take a look at the Security Enhanced Linux (SEL) kernel/system extensions developed by the NSA.  These provide manditory access control for different parts of the OS.

And please, no wise-asses advising me to switch to a Mac!     That I will not do.  I can't afford a Mac, and I don't want to "learn" how to build one.  I can build a Pentium machine pretty easily by now, but I don't want to dick around with Apple stuff.

Specific labels aside , I'd suggest that most people expressing the sentiment that Macs are generally more expensive than Windows PC's tend to be laboring under several misconceptions or lack some important information.  Even when comparing machines of similar performance levels (rather than marketing labels), examples include the fact that Macs have far higher resale values (like good audio gear!) than Windows PC's, and the more significant fact that most people forget that their time has monetary value.  (This last statement refers not just to time spent performing maintenance and support, but the efficiency of the user interface - something that Linux has room for improvement as well.)  However, since it sounds like you already have spare PC parts laying around and the expertise to put them together into a working machine, I'll skip that sermon for now!

Good luck in choosing your solution.  Let us know what path you choose!

[Rob Babcock]

I've never seen any Mac that I'd call cheap, but that doesn't mean much.  I could build a pretty nice websurfing machine based on a P4/2.8 for well under $400; could I even get a mac mobo/proc for that?  

As for security, I suspect just ditching IE would stop 90% of the attacks on a Windows machine.  I'd imagine using Mozilla with some flavor of Linux would likely turn back 98% of 'em.

Unless there really is a way to do Mac on the super-cheap, I won't consider it.  There's no point in spending much on a machine that's never gonna do much more than surf & let me pay my bills online.  

I can't take Apple seriously as my "heavy lifting" computer.  No offense to all you mac guys, but there're a few programs I use that simply have no mac-capable counterpart.  Take away those apps and I wouldn't even need a computer.

Any advice on maximizing security on a Pentium/AMD machine (OS, hardware or software) is appreciated.

BTW, I already have BitDefender, Adware & Spyblaster, as well as a router between my PC & the modem.  I update my AV software daily without fail.

[BenF]

Rob, I use an old Mac running 8.6 to surf the net, send e-mail and pay bills online. Nobody wants to write viruses or trojan horses for it anymore. It is an "obsolete" OS. However, it works and I have never had any infection.

For these basic web functions you describe, an old Mac is fine. They are widely available for cheap used. Check out www.lowendmac.com. If security is really the only issue, then my solution is great.

New eMacs are pretty cheap too. I saw one for $529 the other day. This includes the 17" monitor, CD drive, firewire, USB, 100BT, etc. all-in-one. And, yes, you can still build a new PC cheaper, barely, with security holes.

I hope this contributed value. I'm just sharing what I do. There is some security in having too little money to keep up with technology!

Ben

[Rob Babcock]

I could build one a lot cheaper than $529, but that's just because I have some spare parts on hand (ATX case, heatsink & quiet fan combo, cables, a few optical drives, etc).

Still, if I could do Mac on the cheap, it may be an option.  But more likely is that I'm posting this from my cheapo machine- I'd probably rather "sanitize" this PC and built a higher end one as soon as I can afford it.  You can't get much cheaper than a machine you already have.  Potentially all I'd need is the new OS.

BTW, is there any file compatibility between Linux & Windows?  In other words, if I save a jpeg to a jump drive on a Linux machine, will a Windows machine be able to read that jpeg?  I just know next to nothing about Linux.  Is the user interface simple enough that I could do my online business easily?

[Rob Babcock]

BTW, BenF, just how much Mac would a guy need for web use?  Would a G3 be fast enough and useful for this?  And do the G3/G4/Cube Macs use a the same HD that a Pentium/Athlon machine would?  And can an older machine like that be updated to work with my router & cable modem?  And lastly, would a regular KVM work to have a PC and a Mac share my 19" Samsung PC monitor, MS Natural multimedia keyboard & wireless MS mouse?  

Sorry to bury you with questions, but whatever I do will necessitate having two CPUs share one monitor & key/mouse.  I just don't have room for anything else.  

Thanks for all the great suggestions, everyone!  Keep it up.

[EchiDna]

Rob,
What are all these security holes you speak of? I can honestly say that my father (running a second gen I-Mac) is more of a risk to his own computer's security than any virus or trojan author. He has had his machine infected a few times now due to his inability to use the thing between his ears to "manually" filter the obvious stuff...He has even emailed back spammers requesting them to stop sending him 'enhancement' products and the like....

Myself on the other hand have thus far in 17+ years of owning a microsoft OS or linux OS operated machine have NEVER (I'm tempting fate I know) had anything cause a problem. Yes I have had virus infections, but I have removed them before they caused damage and yes I have had spyware and the like install itself, but these too I have removed using ad-aware and similar products on a weekly basis for years now... I do run AVG, I have both hard (my router) and software firewalls and I can honestly say that the only way anything has got onto my pc is through either myself or my wife letting it get there in the first place. Running a scan on a weekly or daily basis will prevent well over 95% of such issues every becoming a real problem.

If you just want a machine for websurfing, then you are crazy buying new no matter if it is Mac or PC based. Anthing higher than 700 mhz with 256 mb of ram will do the job, it will just take a while to boot... once you are in the browser, the difference between a latest generation or an older machine is negligable.

Perhaps even consider an ex-corporate laptop as this can save your desk space and could go wireless around the house if needed. You should get change out of $250 for this option.

Does your machine really get "attacked" so often? My firewall has bounced a few attackers over the years, but the chances of someone snooping around in your PC are some infinitely tiny given decent firewall protection, and the sheer volume of users out there, i.e. why choose yours when there is plenty of less protected machines about?

I think you gave an indication earlier on in the thread, that is some of the stuff on your machine may not be seen as 100% legal if someone was snooping in there... well in the real world, I doubt there is a soul among us who could say differently, and many of those who could try to claim such piety would find that they did have music files or pictures or video files that aren't legal anyway. Don't sweat the small stuff, unless you are doing something highly illegal, in which case I wish the snoopers well  

Just my $0.02 worth, best of luck with whatever you decide upon

[Rob Babcock]

EchiDNA, I think you're probably a lot more computer savvy than I am.  I've got a couple nasty viruses despite never clicking on or opening spam and religiously keeping my AV protection up to date.  And I've had some things that I just had fits trying to take off.  I'm not a computer professional, but there are an awful lot of known exploits in IE, and a lot of things that can run an exe via (I think) ActiveX.  Certainly there are a lot more qualified guys than me to explain Windows vulnerabilities.

The main thing that concerns me is this:  when a trojan or spyware installs and doesn't get caught immediately, what can it do?  Are keystroke loggers prevalent at all?  Could it be amassing passwords, credit card info, etc and sending out when I connect to the net?  I honestly don't know.  I've always felt safe in the past on sites with a the lil' padlock and a valid security cert.  I think most non-whiz types have some of these conderns.  And it might be pure paranoia, I just don't know.

I've gone many years without any problems til about a month ago.  Again, I'm no computer expert but I'm no newb, either.  I know my way around, I've learned to build PCs, etc.  But after a couple nasty viruses (missed completely by a daily-updated Norton & Adaware), I'm a bit concerned.  Especially given that my PC is behind a router, too.

I imagine you could say nothing is risk free, and I accept that.  But it seems to me that computer security shouldn't be a crapshoot, either.  I've felt reasonably secure in the past, but now I'm not so sure.  Hence my move to Firefox (which, luckily for me, is overall better than IE, to boot).

If I'm overreacting, I wish someone would pull an "Airplane" and slap me!  

[EchiDna]

ok... I think the picture is a bit clearer now

oh.. and my last post was edited during your last post... *sigh*

yes there is vulnerabilities and yes there is virii and trojans and stuff around, but keep your real email address off all online databases, be a bit practical about where and what you surf for (playing with Warez and the like is asking for trouble) and check out all of your bank and credit card companies' policies on your commitment in the event of a false or erroneous billing. Pretty simple. I found that only one of my bank accounts and no credit type facility had any loss on my part given an improper charge, and that was limited to only S$100 (about US$65). I even set up auto email back services for every charge or deposit/withdrawal from my accounts, that way nothing happens that I don't know about. My bank accounts are also setup where I have to approve all new payees via return mail or the payment will be rejected. I cannot pay an individual or another bank in another country at all (by choice) unless I go into the bank in person etc...

Right now I'm skeptical of the capacity for anyone to get ripped off badly as every bank would go into meltdown if their internet site security was found to be faulty.

Does anyone have true, reliable evidence of such actions?

[Rob Babcock]

You're probably right about that.  I guess it's more an issue that I get pissed when I'm careful and take all the time to keep everything updated & still have problems.  I would have to say though that I've had very very little trouble over the years, so it's certainly not an epidemic or anything.

I still plan to keep one computer completely offline, mostly in case some of the software I now use gets whacked by later legislation.  And also to keep them from getting corrupted.  If I maintain two machines, keeping one for just burning and stuff should also let me keep it leaner & faster.

[EchiDna]

one system offline will work ok and should remain stable and streamlined...


consider the ex-corporate laptop idea, it works for me

a 2 year old factory refurbished Dell, IBM or HP/Compaq can be had online cheaply or there might be a vendor doing over the counter sales of this type of machine in your town (there is about 10 of em here in Singapore!) with another year of the original waranty left, get wireless and you are not tied to your desk anymore, but then there is the whole security of your network thing this time around... hehe

Cheers,

[BenF]

I'm no guru, but my Mac is older than a G3 and works fine via a 56K modem I got for $1 at a rummage sale! I could add a COM card, but I don't really need it.

Any G3 or newer Mac should be fine. The desktop ones use IDE hard drives from the G3 Beige on to the present. The G3 laptops on up use IDE 2.5" drives. They can use the cable modem because they come with 10/100BT built in. An adapter might be needed for your monitor, but after a certain point, all the Macs have USB also, so keyboards and mice should work across platform.

Unfortunately, the details like this boil down to which model. I am sure there are a few that would fit all your websurfing needs and be able to share the monitor, etc. It really is nice that so much is more universally usable these days, so the question of which OS is less important than what programs you want to run.

Hope this short note is helpful. Ben