Sibilance

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Mag

Sibilance
« on: 19 Nov 2010, 05:50 pm »
With my new center channel speaker I'm noticing more sibilance on some tracks. I said this before but my reasoning confirms that it is associated more with very revealing speakers combined with compressed music.
 
The sibilance was always noticeable with some compressed music, just that it wasn't as irritating. The quality of the recording is also a factor, like the MC5 cds I purchased, that is just crap that can't be polished to sound good. How someone recommended it as one of the best songs of all time is beyond me. :scratch:

Johnny2Bad

Re: Sibilance
« Reply #1 on: 24 Nov 2010, 08:42 am »
If you can find a frequency response curve for the new centre channel speaker, check to see if the range from (broadly speaking) 2K to 8K is emphasized. That is the wide range area, and any peakiness or overall emphasis there will tend to make the speaker more prone to emphasis of sibilance.
Perhaps more specifically, look for a peak at 6K (male voices) and 7K (female voices). Although it does vary, those two are commonly associated with sibilance amongst recording or stage engineers.
As for the MC5, well, they are terrible recordings, but I would agree that they are seminal performances in the history of Rock N Roll. It's about the music with those ... they never sound good Sound Quality wise. You could say the same things for some of the early Iggy Pop/Iggy and the Stooges records.
Would you care to tell us what centre channel unit you're listening to?

Mag

Re: Sibilance
« Reply #2 on: 25 Nov 2010, 05:19 am »
>>If you can find a frequency response curve for the new centre channel speaker, check to see if the range from (broadly speaking) 2K to 8K is emphasized. That is the wide range area, and any peakiness or overall emphasis there will tend to make the speaker more prone to emphasis of sibilance.
Perhaps more specifically, look for a peak at 6K (male voices) and 7K (female voices). Although it does vary, those two are commonly associated with sibilance amongst recording or stage engineers.<<

>>Would you care to tell us what centre channel unit you're listening to?<<

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that I had a sibilance issue. I am addressing what causes sibilance.

Yes, I hear sibilance on some music tracks, that is more apparent with my new Paradigm 590 v5 center channel, all my speakers are Paradigm. However the vast majority of my music collection there is no sibilance.

Your suggesting that my speakers emphasis 2K-8K freq. range. Which may be the case, but my opinion is they have a linear freq. paired with Bryston amps in these upper freq. ranges.

In regards to the music tracks I'm referring to, most are from mp3, but one is the original cd recording. All have various levels of sibilance on the vocals. IMO, sibilance maybe a result of codec compression digital artifacts, vocal compression used in recording or mixing.

Suggested causes of sibilance so far:

- Speaker emphasis in freq. ranges 2K-8K, specifically 6K (male vocals) 7K (female vocals).

- Codec compression, resulting in digital artifacts sibilance

- Vocal compression used in recording or mixing process.

- DSP (digital sound processing)


jimdgoulding

Re: Sibilance
« Reply #3 on: 25 Nov 2010, 06:13 am »
Well, you got another tweeter in the mix.  Sometimes it's just about the nearness to the mic when all else sounds balanced.  Or, who's sitting at the mixing board.  I hear this more on recordings made in a studio.  On Natalie Merchants's new release- this is a very fine recording notably for the supporting muscians- I hear more of this on her vocal on the opening track than on the one that follows, for example  :dunno:.

Napalm

Re: Sibilance
« Reply #4 on: 25 Nov 2010, 03:25 pm »
Well, you got another tweeter in the mix.  Sometimes it's just about the nearness to the mic when all else sounds balanced.  Or, who's sitting at the mixing board.  I hear this more on recordings made in a studio.  On Natalie Merchants's new release- this is a very fine recording notably for the supporting muscians- I hear more of this on her vocal on the opening track than on the one that follows, for example  :dunno:.

It's a characteristic of (small-diaphragm) condenser mics especially when used close. The cure is large diaphragm dynamic mics and/or mixing board voodoo.

Hearing it clean and clear on some recordings means that your reproduction chain is working well.

Nap.


Napalm

Re: Sibilance
« Reply #5 on: 25 Nov 2010, 03:34 pm »
Here's what they do at mixing time:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De-essing

Unfortunately it's a quite a late fix, I'd rather hear a well chosen and positioned mic with a windscreen.

Nap.

Johnny2Bad

Re: Sibilance
« Reply #6 on: 25 Nov 2010, 06:11 pm »
" ... Your suggesting that my speakers emphasis 2K-8K freq. range. Which may be the case, but my opinion is they have a linear freq. paired with Bryston amps in these upper freq. ranges. ..."


Well, linear means different things depending on what you're referring to. No loudspeaker I know of, at any price, is without peaks and valleys in the frequency response. Compared to a Bryston amplifier, for example, they are quite "non-linear". This does not mean a loudspeaker cannot be neutral or well balanced vis-a-vis the loudspeaker competition.


If the centre channel is a new addition (i.e. no centre channel speaker before) it's probably installed pretty much totally on-axis with your listening position. I would expect the Paradigms (the left + right) to have wide HF dispersion, but there is always some loss of HF energy off-axis, there are nulls depending on the axis (ie a given frequency may be +2dB referenced to 1 kHz on axis, -2 dB at 15 degrees off-axis, and back to +2 dB at 30 degrees off-axis, etc).


In fact, carefully balancing the on and off-axis response is how most speaker manufacturers build a good in-room versus strictly anechoic response, and certainly this is characteristic of virtually all manufacturers who use the NRC facilities; you could say it's a hallmark of speakers made with the aid of that particular facility.


Below is the dispersion characteristic of the Paradigm Reference Studio 60 v5, hardly a lightweight. To make the first curve, the HF response is plotted as a straight line and the waterfall plots are deviations from that line. In other words, if it's up it's higher energy than the on-axis response of the speaker, if it's down, it's lower energy than the on-axis response.


The actual HF response is not a straight line … this is just the deviation from whatever it actually is. (The actual on-axis HF response is shown in the second graph). Nor should anyone be particularly alarmed by the deviations in the overall response ... again, Paradigm works hard to achieve good in-room response and balance, taking into account the on and off-axis response as a whole. For example the on-axis response has a dip at about 2.5 kHz, but the off-axis response is emphasized at that same frequency, with the result being probably a neutral in-room response. It does illustrate, however, how at any given point, with the speaker firing directly at your listening position and closest to you, how there definitely can be emphasis on one frequency versus it's neighbours.








You may find that the issue is minimized by simply changing the vertical height of your centre-channel speaker with regard to your listening position.


Another possible question I might ask is how, exactly, you're getting the centre channel information in the first place. Is this 5.1/6.1/7.1 source material, or is it being synthesized by an A/V processor from fewer channels?


If it is discreet multichannel, then is it from a compressed multichannel source (e.g. Dolby Digital, DTS, DTS-ES, etc), or discreet uncompressed multichannel (e.g., Dolby TrueHD, DTS HD Master Audio)? Many multichannel disks contain audio which is compressed, which might exacerbate your issue with compression artifacts.


Sibilance is going to exist on recordings, period. Some are better than others ... the mastering engineer will probably use various "de-essing" methods to minimize it, but then again you can't be too aggressive or it affects the program material's overall integrity. Some female voice exhibit sibilance when they speak and you're standing next to them; you don't need a recording chain to manifest it.

Mag

Re: Sibilance
« Reply #7 on: 26 Nov 2010, 01:51 am »

>>Another possible question I might ask is how, exactly, you're getting the centre channel information in the first place. Is this 5.1/6.1/7.1 source material, or is it being synthesized by an A/V processor from fewer channels?


If it is discreet multichannel, then is it from a compressed multichannel source (e.g. Dolby Digital, DTS, DTS-ES, etc), or discreet uncompressed multichannel (e.g., Dolby TrueHD, DTS HD Master Audio)? Many multichannel disks contain audio which is compressed, which might exacerbate your issue with compression artifacts.<<

I'm breaking all the rules of conventional audio! :P
 98% of the time I listen to 2 channel stereo DSP to multi-channel stereo, in Enhanced mode. My objective is to simulate as near as possible the concert experience, which I believe I've achieved.

I'm using 3 sets of Front speakers, 1 set of Presence speakers, 1 set of Surrounds, 2 Center channel speakers, 1 Sub.

Anyway I was adjusting the parameter settings of my av/receiver. Switching from Auto EQ to Graphic EQ with flat settings has substantially reduced the sibilance on the previous mentioned music tracks.

Thanks

P.S. what is the meaning of the 3 different colored lines in the graph?

Napalm

Re: Sibilance
« Reply #8 on: 26 Nov 2010, 03:25 am »
P.S. what is the meaning of the 3 different colored lines in the graph?

Looks like he chose the graph for a front ported speaker.

So they would be:

red - frequency response measured at bass port
green - frequency response of bass-midrange driver(s)
blue - frequency response of the tweeter

when you sum them up you get the overall frequency response.

And looking at the ultrasonic resonance I bet it's a Paradigm speaker.

Nap.