[Quiet Earth]

Customers that are dropping 10K on speakers (or more) want to know they're getting "something" for their money.

Some of them just listen and could care less what's inside or how it's done.

[Niteshade]

That's a good point. There should be concern regarding component quality, if for nothing else than longevity.

In speaking of capacitors, I have some Fisher tube gear from the 60's that STILL have their original filter capacitors! 

I'm not taking them out either because they work and test 100% perfect. My hotrodded "junker" 800C is the best! It was a barn special that has been revived and made into an integrated amp. It looks awful and sounds heavenly. Hmm..much like my 1974 Chevy C20.

[Niteshade]

There are inferior components and inferiors can provide the same values in a tester as a superior one. LCR meters ONLY test one value, they can not test how that part will react in a circuit.

People are getting things confused regarding component upgrades and not understanding precisely what I am saying. 

First, you will always see an improvement in performance or at least longevity when the right part is used for the job. This is an undeniable fact.

Second, if you're using the proper quality parts for the job to begin with, replacing them with another brand that is the same quality or even better most likely will NOT make a difference. For a circuit to perform right, it has to have the correct components installed. If performance improves when parts are exchanged, that means the original parts were not right for the job. Do you see how I am looking at things?

Third, components are made for specific jobs. For example, a photoflash capacitor should not be used as a filter in a power supply. People do it, but it's unwise because they were not made for continuous duty. Yet, a 330uf flash cap will measure exactly the same as a 330uf filter capacitor on a LCR meter. This is a case where upgrading is clearly beneficial. I want to stress the word "clearly".

Fourth, as a continuation from above, I only want to provide upgrades that are clearly upgrades. I use parts that are perfect for their jobs in all stock units. They are not cheap spinoffs. In fact, I switched over to a new coupling capacitor a while back that's using the latest manufacturing processes. They actually became smaller because the internals are higher quality and the construction process was improved. They're a industrial/commercial product and I doubt they are stressed in the slightest as a coupling cap. No stress equates to a long lifespan AND quality sound.

I have experimented with Auricaps and Sprague Black Beauties. No audible differences were detected. Experimentation was not done on any others.

Circuit sensitivity: I will share something with you: Components like to be used under the ratings printed on their casing. This goes for wattage and voltage. If the circuit is, say putting 5 watts through a 5 watt resistor, this is not good. It is a good practice to use at least a 10 watt resistor in that scenario. If someone were to use a 15uf electrolytic in place of a Tantalum in a circuit, it will work, but it may not last long.

You will find that I am a stickler for using components of the proper composition for a specific job. Not everything is interchangeable, even if they have the same values.  Folks, you are working yourselves up for nothing if you believe that all stock components from every manufacturer are inferior. This is not so! Please do not stereotype.

Are other manufacturers putting a load in your ear? ONLY if they are purposely using a $20.00 component in a location where a $5.00 one still exceeded the circuit parameters. Do you understand what I am saying? I am not talking about replacing an inferior component with a better one. You have to look at things from the circuit's standpoint and I doubt people are doing that. For example, if a circuit has 2 watt resistors in it and it's only sending 1/2 a watt through them, would it make any difference from a quality standpoint if they were replaced with 10 watt resistors? They're bigger and more expensive so it should  better, right? Absolutely not. Sure, it may look impressive and will cost more but that's it.

The bottom line: You mentioned field reports that state marked improvements after upgrading components:

1] Are they replacing inferior components?
2] Are they replacing components initially well suited for their job?

What do you know as FACT about the components being removed?

It's somewhat ironic that while Blair, as a relatively new manufacturer, claims that there is no difference between say, a polyester cap and a teflon cap (assuming the same value), other, more established manufacturers (Audio Research, conrad johnson, Audio Note, hell, even B&W has discovered the sonic advantages to Mundor caps) have been converting to better components.  So who is right? 

Yes, there are others who share Blair's philosphy - Frank Van Alstine and Roger M. come to mind, but again, they are niche manufacturers (granted, very well rgarded niche manufacturers) who more than likely don't have have either the time,inclination, or cost incentive to play the component game (some of these suckers can get expensive!)  Although I seem to recall that Jeff Behr has modified Rogers EM7 amps with positive results.

That B&W has done the research and concluded that the Mundorf oil caps are sonically the best for their diamond tweeters is enough for me to accept that here are sonic differences between components. 

So to me it boils down to these questions: 
1) Blair, why do you beleive that components don't make a sonic difference? 
2) Have you experimented with the exotics?
3) Is it possible that some circuits are more sensitive to upgrades than others?
4) Are all the other rather large and successful manufacturers spewing marketing bullsh*t?
5) Are all of the field reports  delusional?
6) Does anybody really know what time it is?

[BobRex]

You will find that I am a stickler for using components of the proper composition for a specific job. Not everything is interchangeable, even if they have the same values.  Folks, you are working yourselves up for nothing if you believe that all stock components from every manufacturer are inferior. This is not so! Please do not stereotype.

I don't believe that anybody is stereotyping, nor is anybody saying that "all stock components from every manufacturer are inferior".  Cost constriants enter into the picture; some of the exotic parts, like say the Mundorf caps B&W is using can cost up to 300 bucks each.  Not every manufacturer is willing to use them.    Lou Johnson is on record as stating that teflon caps are sonically superior.  He has compared them (I would assume value to value / voltage rating to voltage rating) with other caps and found that in his application they were sonically better.  Lou has been playing with components since the '80s, so I'm willing to accept his statements at face value.  Ralph Karsten offers both capacitor (teflon)and resistor (caddock film) upgrades to his equipment.  Why not OEM the parts?  Cost, pure and simple.  Again, Ralph is a highly respected manufacturer who has been around much longer than you.  Oh, and the "base" parts are high quality to begin with.

You are starting to sound a bit too arrogant here - this idea of "inferior" is a smoke screen.  Of course you design and use parts that are "perfectly suited" for their jobs.  All manufacturers (as opposed to hobbyists who may or may not even know their way around Ohm's Law) should do likewise.  I spent 20 years selling and servicing equipment and from what I saw, most do.

Are other manufacturers putting a load in your ear? ONLY if they are purposely using a $20.00 component in a location where a $5.00 one still exceeded the circuit parameters. Do you understand what I am saying? I am not talking about replacing an inferior component with a better one. You have to look at things from the circuit's standpoint and I doubt people are doing that. For example, if a circuit has 2 watt resistors in it and it's only sending 1/2 a watt through them, would it make any difference from a quality standpoint if they were replaced with 10 watt resistors? They're bigger and more expensive so it should  better, right? Absolutely not. Sure, it may look impressive and will cost more but that's it.

The bottom line: You mentioned field reports that state marked improvements after upgrading components:

1] Are they replacing inferior components?
2] Are they replacing components initially well suited for their job?

What do you know as FACT about the components being removed?

What I know is that the reports deal with major manufacturers (BAT, Music Reference, Atma-Sphere...)who have designed and sold substantially more equipment than you have.  These manufacturers have also received many favorable reviews over many years and the designers have proven themselves many times over.  The idea that they have used "inferior" componentry is inane.  You are grasping at straws.

Regarding your resistor example above, I fully agree that substituting a 10 watt resistor for a 2 watt is useless and will have zero impact.  I never said bigger was better.  But what if said resistor was a carbon comp and was replaced with the same value film resistor?   Depending upon location, that MAY (notice I said may) result in a sonic difference.

[Niteshade]

I didn't mean to sound arrogant. So it's not a mystery, I tend to use Vishay metalized polypropylene capacitors for most coupling applications.

A good read: http://www.americancapacitor.com/Diel.htm

I have been looking into this subject with interest since so many people place a high value on boutique components. What bothers me so far is the lack of, say, Teflon capacitors mentioned outside the audio community.

That brings up another question: Why is it that specialty capacitors are typically ONLY mentioned among audio enthusiasts? It's a shame when a good product or component isn't more widely used in the electronics industry. I'm not being sarcastic. As the list above states, various capacitor makeups have different pro's and con's.

[guest1632]

I didn't mean to sound arrogant. So it's not a mystery, I tend to use Vishay metalized polypropylene capacitors for most coupling applications.

A good read: http://www.americancapacitor.com/Diel.htm

I have been looking into this subject with interest since so many people place a high value on boutique components. What bothers me so far is the lack of, say, Teflon capacitors mentioned outside the audio community.

That brings up another question: Why is it that specialty capacitors are typically ONLY mentioned among audio enthusiasts? It's a shame when a good product or component isn't more widely used in the electronics industry. I'm not being sarcastic. As the list above states, various capacitor makeups have different pro's and con's.

Hi Blair,

On the cap issue, probably because the Teflon caps wouldn't really have a use outside the audio industry. oh, i suppose you could use them in a computer motherboard in the audio section. But then this would get expensive, and the masses wouldn't buy that board.

on the resistor question, the question was raised about the two types of resistors and there sonic attributes. Any comment there?

Ray Bronk

[Niteshade]

I wouldn't believe the Teflon cap had its roots in audio. Most likely it was a military application. As to why it's been dropped from the available mainstream component manufacturers is a mystery. My guess is polypropylene-based capacitors have been undergoing technological improvements and most likely come very,very close to their performance.

Resistors: I have not noticed much of a difference between carbon film, carbon composition or metal film capacitors. The most stable would be carbon film & metal film.

[guest1632]

I wouldn't believe the Teflon cap had its roots in audio. Most likely it was a military application. As to why it's been dropped from the available mainstream component manufacturers is a mystery. My guess is polypropylene-based capacitors have been undergoing technological improvements and most likely come very,very close to their performance.

Resistors: I have not noticed much of a difference between carbon film, carbon composition or metal film capacitors. The most stable would be carbon film & metal film.

Hi Blair,

on the question of resistors, there is supposed to be a difference in sound between the carbon type and the metal film type. That was his question. With all values being the same, you might take a few moments and if you happen to have some carbons and metal films of equal value, then put them in a critical circuit, and see if you can tell the difference. Even brands of resistors have there own sound character.

Ray Bronk

[poseidonsvoice]

BobRex,

I think Blair explained himself pretty clearly in this quote:

I have experimented with Auricaps and Sprague Black Beauties. No audible differences were detected.

End of discussion. But I will ask Blair to kindly post somewhere on his forum what his playback system is composed of, so clients can get an idea of what his associated equipment, speakers and most importantly, ROOM that he auditions his gear in. I think having a certain level of fidelity is important as a baseline for any manufacturer and this should be divulged to current and future clients.

Anand.

[guest1632]

BobRex,

I think Blair explained himself pretty clearly in this quote:

End of discussion. But I will ask Blair to kindly post somewhere on his forum what his playback system is composed of, so clients can get an idea of what his associated equipment, speakers and most importantly, ROOM that he auditions his gear in. I think having a certain level of fidelity is important as a baseline for any manufacturer and this should be divulged to current and future clients.

Anand.

Hi Anand,

While I agree with the idea presented here to Blair, I haven't seen this criteria to Frank, hugh, Roger, and any other vendors here selling electronic stuff on AC. Matter of fact, Anand, you might want to propose this as part of there acceptance to having a circle here. I would go one step farther. Do you as a manufacturer also listen to other people's gear. This might give an idea of there audio education besides what they themselves build. All of this gives us insight in to the person doing the manufacturing. This whole thing here is actually offtopic, and probably should be in another thread.

Ray Bronk

[Niteshade]

I have not noticed a great deal, if any sonic difference between carbon and metal film resistors. I have used carbon film and composition resistors in many builds.

Hi Blair,

on the question of resistors, there is supposed to be a difference in sound between the carbon type and the metal film type. That was his question. With all values being the same, you might take a few moments and if you happen to have some carbons and metal films of equal value, then put them in a critical circuit, and see if you can tell the difference. Even brands of resistors have there own sound character.

Ray Bronk

[Ericus Rex]

I haven't heard any boutique cap manufacturers claim their caps WORK and better than other types.  They just claim that they SOUND better.  Why would anyone outside of the audio industry care how a cap sounds?  I think this is why you find these caps only in the audio field.

I thought the only real difference between metal film and carbon resistors was noise level; metal film winning the fight.

[turkey]

I haven't heard any boutique cap manufacturers claim their caps WORK and better than other types.  They just claim that they SOUND better.  Why would anyone outside of the audio industry care how a cap sounds?  I think this is why you find these caps only in the audio field.

If they are claiming their products sound better than others, then they are also claiming they perform better than others.

I thought the only real difference between metal film and carbon resistors was noise level; metal film winning the fight.

I think metal film also tends to be better at maintaining its resistance value over time.

[BobRex]

BobRex,

I think Blair explained himself pretty clearly in this quote:

End of discussion. But I will ask Blair to kindly post somewhere on his forum what his playback system is composed of, so clients can get an idea of what his associated equipment, speakers and most importantly, ROOM that he auditions his gear in. I think having a certain level of fidelity is important as a baseline for any manufacturer and this should be divulged to current and future clients.

Anand.

Anand,

Go back and look at my last post.  I was responding Blair's statement regarding "inferior" components and the implication that other manufacturers are using such components.  I interpreted that line of reasoning as false, and gave reasons why. 

Listing his system is a good idea, it will at least give everybody a frame of reference.

Bob

[jtwrace]

Anand,
Listing his system is a good idea, it will at least give everybody a frame of reference.

Bob

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=88103.0

and for ALL A.C. manufacturers to post in http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=88105.0

[BobRex]

I didn't mean to sound arrogant. So it's not a mystery, I tend to use Vishay metalized polypropylene capacitors for most coupling applications.

A good read: http://www.americancapacitor.com/Diel.htm

I have been looking into this subject with interest since so many people place a high value on boutique components. What bothers me so far is the lack of, say, Teflon capacitors mentioned outside the audio community.

That brings up another question: Why is it that specialty capacitors are typically ONLY mentioned among audio enthusiasts? It's a shame when a good product or component isn't more widely used in the electronics industry. I'm not being sarcastic. As the list above states, various capacitor makeups have different pro's and con's.

One of the reasons you may not be hearing much of a difference in the caps is that the Vishays are already "exotic."  I agree that switching from one poly cap to another may only bring a subtle difference. 

Regarding Teflon caps, I remember seeing them in parts catalogs (not audio parts) over 30 years ago.  We even had some in inventory in the Bell Labs stockroom, so I believe they do predate audio use.

[poseidonsvoice]

Anand,

Go back and look at my last post.  I was responding Blair's statement regarding "inferior" components and the implication that other manufacturers are using such components.  I interpreted that line of reasoning as false, and gave reasons why. 

Listing his system is a good idea, it will at least give everybody a frame of reference.

Bob

Bob,

I agree with most of what you have said. However, I am not as patient as you are and I lack a certain degree of tact. So when I saw what Blair had written, I said to myself, let's stop right there. Let's find out what he listens to, what his room is like, how it is optimized, etc...before we press further. Only because I feel we have hit an impasse. And I agree with what jtwrace is doing and trying to see if the manufacturers will capitulate and reveal what their 'reference' so called systems are. I think it is only fair. My favorite loudspeakers on the planet are the GedLee Abbeys. I know EXACTLY what Earl Geddes uses to listen, what his gear is, his room, etc... I even know what music he uses to audition his system to everybody else (of course he will play whatever you want). It provides at least a  frame of reference. We should also know how old they are, and if their hearing has been checked recently (as should all reviewers of audio components who work for the so called famed E-zines and magazines).

Sorry about the off topic comments. Blair, you may prune my posts as you see fit.

Anand.

[Niteshade]

What I was trying to say from the beginning post is this: People will find a greater degree of improvements with circuit upgrades than with component upgrades. This goes for my equipment and I should not have generalized that statement.

Amps & preamps can be made an infinite amount of ways.  Different designs will have different component sensitivities. My gear has always been sensitive to power supply quality as well as the grounding architecture.



Now that you know what my playback systems consist of, it is a good idea to examine the inside of an amplifier. You might have noticed that it looks sparse. This is a completed amplifier.  All coupling caps are the most advanced polypropylene and have been reduced in size by 25%. Our power supply is based on a 1950's architecture which relies on a multi-step filtration system instead of banks of huge electrolytics. The efficiency of the ground system is a large factor in how well the power supply works. This amp uses a power transformer with a shielded secondary and eliminates allot of noise which can be induced from the mains. AKA: Isolation transformer. On top of that, a wide copper band surrounds the core to reduce/eliminate radiated EMI.

[poseidonsvoice]

What I was trying to say from the beginning post is this: People will find a greater degree of improvements with circuit upgrades than with component upgrades. This goes for my equipment and I should not have generalized that statement.

Amps & preamps can be made an infinite amount of ways.  Different designs will have different component sensitivities. My gear has always been sensitive to power supply quality as well as the grounding architecture.



Now that you know what my playback systems consist of, it is a good idea to examine the inside of an amplifier. You might have noticed that it looks sparse. This is a completed amplifier.  All coupling caps are the most advanced polypropylene and have been reduced in size by 25%. Our power supply is based on a 1950's architecture which relies on a multi-step filtration system instead of banks of huge electrolytics. The efficiency of the ground system is a large factor in how well the power supply works. This amp uses a power transformer with a shielded secondary and eliminates allot of noise which can be induced from the mains. AKA: Isolation transformer. On top of that, a wide copper band surrounds the core to reduce/eliminate radiated EMI.

Although there is more to PS design, electrostatic shielding and a copper hum reducing band is a good start. My own parafeed headphone amp/preamp uses similar ideas with a choke input power supply 

Anand.

[Niteshade]

Upgrade options have to be carefully thought out:

1. The upgrade should be clearly noticeable.
2. The upgrade has to be justifiable in principle. Can it be clearly explained?


I make upgrade suggestions based on the amp/preamp involved as well as what it's going to be connected to. There are many times when upgrades are not even necessary.