[sts9fan]

Drinking 18Mohm water is in fact very bad for you. Just drinking rodi is also a health hazard. Both will suck electolytes from your system.

[blakep]

If you look around I bet you could buy it for ~$30 for a four liter jug.

About $50 will buy you 5 gallons of Type 1 Reagent Grade Water. You would pay about 8-9X that purchasing from Mo-Fi, Walker, etc.

[blakep]

Using it as a record cleaner, is fine in my mind, but I can go down to the local grocery store and buy a gallon for about $0.39, so I have no idea what benefit a machine is. I make my own record cleaning fluid with a 3 to 1 mix of the water I get at the store with 99% Isopropyl alcohol. Records are nice and clean, noise free, little cost to do it all.

My 2 cents.

Wayner

It's all relative I suppose. I've experimented with DIY cleaners in the past and have never felt they do the job that the purpose designed commercial cleaners do. Same thing with ultra pure water relative to store bought distilled.

What's really shocking is to clean a brand new record which appears to be very clean and have it sound (and I don't mean from a cleanliness point-pops, ticks, etc) very different following the cleaning. Improved detail and separation of instruments, dynamics etc-in other words, a very different experience sound wise. 

I'm also not a fan of isopropyl when it comes to cleaning records. Unless you have a very sticky substance on a record which needs to be dissolved I find it to be absolutely unnecessary and not an effective cleaning agent with records. As such, I might use it on perhaps one out of every 30-40 records I clean, undilluted for minimal "spot" cleaning followed by a normal cleaning cycle and rinses.

FWIW, anyone using any DIY solution with isopropyl without doing fairly heavy rinsing afterward with relatively pure water is not hearing what their records are really capable of IMO. Isopropyl has a pretty pronounced sonic signature.

Many (or most) of the highly thought of commercial cleaners use either no isopropyl or just trace amounts in one of their "stages".

I like a clean record but I don't consider myself overly anal about it. Unless you're particularly clumsy with your records you shouldn't have to "re-clean" vinyl once it has been cleaned. The idea of wet cleaning a record before each playing is nuts.

[vinyl_guy]

I use RO deionized water I buy from Culligan at 50 cents/gallon for a 5 gal jug to rinse my records and as the mixing solution with the Disc Doctor concentrate. I am both impressed and satisfied with the results. 5 gallons lasts a long time.

[Wayner]

It's all relative I suppose. I've experimented with DIY cleaners in the past and have never felt they do the job that the purpose designed commercial cleaners do. Same thing with ultra pure water relative to store bought distilled.

What's really shocking is to clean a brand new record which appears to be very clean and have it sound (and I don't mean from a cleanliness point-pops, ticks, etc) very different following the cleaning. Improved detail and separation of instruments, dynamics etc-in other words, a very different experience sound wise. 

I'm also not a fan of isopropyl when it comes to cleaning records. Unless you have a very sticky substance on a record which needs to be dissolved I find it to be absolutely unnecessary and not an effective cleaning agent with records. As such, I might use it on perhaps one out of every 30-40 records I clean, undilluted for minimal "spot" cleaning followed by a normal cleaning cycle and rinses.

FWIW, anyone using any DIY solution with isopropyl without doing fairly heavy rinsing afterward with relatively pure water is not hearing what their records are really capable of IMO. Isopropyl has a pretty pronounced sonic signature.

Many (or most) of the highly thought of commercial cleaners use either no isopropyl or just trace amounts in one of their "stages".

I like a clean record but I don't consider myself overly anal about it. Unless you're particularly clumsy with your records you shouldn't have to "re-clean" vinyl once it has been cleaned. The idea of wet cleaning a record before each playing is nuts.

I've been using this for 40 years. I'll compare any record I have with the same one you have cleaned with your "fancy" cleaners. Mine are clean, noise free and deliver sonic excellence.

Now when I have someone tell me they can hear the difference on a record by what cleaner they used, I have to say "Oh, brother, now I've heard it all". Sorry, but your post is very, very laughable.

Wayner

[jsaliga]

Ahh...so now it's a competition?    My records are cleaner than your records, so there! 

This is getting just too funny.

--Jerome

[jsaliga]

There is irony in this as we are speaking about overkill within a group of people who are already wet cleaning a lump of vinyl using specially formulated cleaning fluids and vacuum drying it .   

That irony wasn't lost on me.  Audiophilia in general is the mother of overkill. 

--Jerome

[Wayner]

On almost every post on the AC, if you haven't bought into some one's "special secret formula", it can't possibly work theory is getting very sickening. It doesn't matter if it's a surge protector, tube dampers or record cleaning formula, it's all getting to be real top of the heap bull shit.

Like I said, I've been cleaning my records this way for 40 years and I mean it. It works. If that upsets some folks that .25 cents worth of stuff can be just as effective as their big buck stuff, tough shit. The Audiocircles is where we discuss all different materials and methods. To me, the mere fact that anyone cleans their records, even with cow urine, is 90% of the battle. To boast that you can hear the difference in cleaning fluids is just plain blasphemy, and leads newbies down a pre-programed path to empty wallet syndrome.

Wayner

[jsaliga]

Wayner, I don't disagree with what you're saying here.  I try not take these things so seriously anymore.  It helps me to avoid the inevitable no win tit-for-tat arguments that eventually ensue, but I also recognize that it probably keeps me out of some interesting discussions that I think are worthwhile.

I'm a big believer in doing what you think works well for you, and I make some effort not to be critical of people who aren't doing things the same way I am.  The world is plenty big enough for two people to do things a little differently with both producing a good result. 

--Jerome

[TheChairGuy]

On almost every post on the AC, if you haven't bought into some one's "special secret formula", it can't possibly work theory is getting very sickening. It doesn't matter if it's a surge protector, tube dampers or record cleaning formula, it's all getting to be real top of the heap bull shit.

Like I said, I've been cleaning my records this way for 40 years and I mean it. It works. If that upsets some folks that .25 cents worth of stuff can be just as effective as their big buck stuff, tough shit. The Audiocircles is where we discuss all different materials and methods. To me, the mere fact that anyone cleans their records, even with cow urine, is 90% of the battle. To boast that you can hear the difference in cleaning fluids is just plain blasphemy, and leads newbies down a pre-programed path to empty wallet syndrome.

Wayner

- Wayner, I think the blogoshere is waiting for you

Just make sure you have the proper PG-13 admonitions attached to it.

Try to dial down the expletive laced 'honesty' here at AC, however, in the future

Carry on ladies and gents.....thanks, John

[blakep]

I've been using this for 40 years. I'll compare any record I have with the same one you have cleaned with your "fancy" cleaners. Mine are clean, noise free and deliver sonic excellence.

Now when I have someone tell me they can hear the difference on a record by what cleaner they used, I have to say "Oh, brother, now I've heard it all". Sorry, but your post is very, very laughable.

Wayner

On almost every post on the AC, if you haven't bought into some one's "special secret formula", it can't possibly work theory is getting very sickening. It doesn't matter if it's a surge protector, tube dampers or record cleaning formula, it's all getting to be real top of the heap bull shit.

Like I said, I've been cleaning my records this way for 40 years and I mean it. It works. If that upsets some folks that .25 cents worth of stuff can be just as effective as their big buck stuff, tough shit. The Audiocircles is where we discuss all different materials and methods. To me, the mere fact that anyone cleans their records, even with cow urine, is 90% of the battle. To boast that you can hear the difference in cleaning fluids is just plain blasphemy, and leads newbies down a pre-programed path to empty wallet syndrome.

Wayner

Just trying to point out what works best for me based on my experience Wayne. FWIW, I'm one of the cheapest SOB's to walk the face of the earth and I'm fortunate that my wife is a researcher and simply brings me home ultrapure water when I need it. So my cost to clean a record breaks down to about 16 cents a record using Mo Fi Enzyme ($40 delivered to my door cleans about 250 records). If I had to buy Type 1 Reagent grade water from a scientific suply house it would run about another $50 for 5 gallons which will do about 2000 records and add an additional 2.5 cents a record.

I've been consistent in record cleaning threads on a number of the forums for about 3 years now in saying how record cleaning consumers are being boned by Mo Fi, Walker and the others and paying outrageous amounts for high purity water and that they should be buying it elsewhere for a fraction of the price.

The fact, though, is that it works and if you frequent any of the other forums you'll hear it from lots of other people as well. As far as hearing differences, I wish it wasn't true; I ended up recleaning/rinsing a reasonably large number of records cleaned with Mo-Fi super Vinyl Wash as the last step a few years ago when I really started using the ultrapure simply because using the SVW (a product costing much more than the water by the way) as the final step resulted in definite masking of detail, limiting of dynamics etc.

Others have had similar experiences and "newbies" might want to hear about those to make their own decisions.

I've also been a huge advocate of the KAB EV1 over the years as opposed to telling people they need to spend $600 for a VPI, $1000 bucks for one of the glitzier wand based/slot based RCM's or $2,500 to $5K for a Loricraft or Monks. I've had records cleaned on a Monks in the past which benefited greatly from a reclean on the KAB usiing the right fluids (a good purpose made surfactant or enzyme based first step followed by 2 rinses with ultrapure).

I think you're totally misunderstanding/misrepresenting me by suggesting my path is heading anyone into empy wallet syndrome. I've been perfectly clear in many threads over the years that one can have virtually state of the art record cleaning with very little financial outlay. I'm not a handy guy but DIY RCM's come in ridiculously cheap and will do, along with the KAB everything that the VPI or other wand/slot based RCM's do at a fraction of the price. The Loricraft or Monks should be better obviously-I just don't see them as being very good value

[chadh]

I had never realized there was such a complicated art to cleaning vinyl.  Probably because I'm solely a digital kind of guy.  Despite that, this thread has been a real inspiration to me and I've done a little experimentation this afternoon.

Unfortunately, I think we'll have to wait a while before I can tell whether reagent-grade water and enzymes have proven beneficial for my 1TB WD hard disc.  It might take a while to dry out.

Chad

[Wayner]

OK, I'll tone it down abit.

My record cleaning machine is the laundry tub. When I buy used records, I know they are dirty and usually not well cared for. When I buy them I always check them for scratches, warps and wear. When I get them home, I fill the rub up with a little tap water and dishwashing detergent. In the record goes (I'm always holding it) and it comes out filled with soap suds, top and bottom. With a horse hair paint brush, I swirl the soup into the grooves on both sides, give it a rinse under our towns tap water, and dry both sides off with an old cotton bath towel. This is step one of a used vinyl recovery system that I employ.

this is the only time the record ever gets washed in this manner. The goal is to get the big chuncks. I do let the lables dry out, flipping the records once to get at both sides.

Now for my everyday treatment. I grew up using the Discwasher cleaning system. When you buy the system, it comes with a very nice brush, with their version of a cleaning fluid. That is the first thing I throw away. I've been lucky enough to have found 4 of the D4 brushes in antique stores thru the years and they were in excellent condition. Some had fluid left, others not. Any way, I knew long ago that vinyl seems to like to collect body oils from handling, and just as bad, dust. 99% alcohol is sold at pharmacies as a solvent. It is not meant to be used on the skin, as it will irritate, or consumed, as it will kill. But it's great for cutting grease, goo and all kinds of other nasties that have found their way onto the LP. I don't use the other lesser "rubbing alcohols", because they have all kinds of impure extra ingredients that I don't want. I have a small spray bottle, that mists the contents perfectly. I mix 3 parts reverse osmosis water with one part alcohol, and add a squirt of Paul's operating room cleaner (a late addition to the formula) and there is the "secret formula".

Before each and every side I play, I spray my Discwasher brush with a couple of shots of this stuff, just to make it damp, not dripping, and clean the record surface (while the record is turning on the platter) with a sweeping motion of my wrist on the record surface.

The results are amazing. Even the hardcore "dirtiest" records I have ever seen, come out very clean, with a few cleanings, they become slippery, and shinny to the sight.

The results are conclusive at least in my mind as several benefits are realized:

1) Cleaning is extremely effective
2) Records turn out near mint condition (sonically to the original pressing)
3) surface noise is almost completely eliminated.
4) Long term use seems to enhance the condition.

As examples of the cleaning, I have the original Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young Deja Vu, that has virtually no noise, even between songs. This is one of the oldest in the collection, but I have some Doors that are even older.

Why no record cleaning machine for me? I don't need it. I've looked at the VPI 16. and have been tempted, but I ask myself, are the records going to turn out any cleaner? I have to answer, no.

Then I've seen the fluids. Some prices would suck all the beer money out of my budget, and again I ask myself, is there going to be a practical economical benefit to the cleaners? Again, my answer is no.

Is my method for everyone, again I say no. There is some learned techniques to this that are hard to describe. If you need a RCM, then get one.

Again, I hope I wasn't proclaiming that my method is the only one, but it has never let me down. There are no ill side effects from the alcohol use on vinyl (as many believe) and it is an inexpensive solution to record cleaning.

At this time in my life, my vinyl playback resolution has never been better. I am always amazed how others can deny themsleves the aural thrill of high quality vinyl playback. It is a wonderland of sound.

The good news here, within this thread, is that, whether we agree on the materials or the methods, we all agree that records sound better when clean and it takes very little effort to do it, once good cleaning habits are created. It becomes second nature.

Wayner 

[mfsoa]

Hi Wayne,

You completely submerge the entire record?

No damage to the label?

Thanks and Happy Bday!

-Mike

[Wayner]

Yep. No damage at all. I don't put the record in and soak it, it's taken out once it's given a bath. Label is wet for a couple of minutes while I clean and dry. I have never had one fall off, deteriorate or otherwise. That is why I also continue with the practice.

Thanks for the BDay wishes, BTW.

Just finished: Pink Floyd, A Momentary Lapse of Reason.

Wayner