[intelonetwo]

Hello,
I have been following the threads in this circle regarding the Panasonic SA-XR45.  By all accounts it sounds like a winner, except that it does not have preamp outputs for all channels, and it is limited to only 4 channels of amplification if the user decideds to use it as their main amplifer through the multichannel inputs.

My question is this; Harman Kardon has a DPR-1001 which I understand to utilize direct digital amplifiers, with 7 channels of available power.  It also have the luxuary of having preamp outputs, and 7.1 inputs.  The only problem as I can see, is that it is a bit underpowered with only 50 watts.  But since manufacturers tend to overrate their products, this may actually turn out to be just an accurate representation of what other receivers in the price range offer as well.  The HK DPR-1001 is also on clearence right now at many places for $599, down from the $1k range.

The million dollar question is:  Does the HK DPR-1001 implement the digital amplifiers in a similar way as the Sony Direct Digital, or Panasonic SA-XR45?  If so, that would mean that it could be used to in 7 channel stereo mode to provide a system with 7 channels of amplification when used as an amplifier.  

If so I am a believer.

[azryan]

"-except that it does not have preamp outputs for all channels,-"

It doesn't have any preouts actually ('cept for sub out), but the whole point of why it's cool is also why someone wouldn't care that it doesn't have preouts.

Either you use it as a killer pure digital path, or you probably should look for something else.

"-and it is limited to only 4 channels of amplification if the user decideds to use it as their main amplifer through the multichannel inputs.-"

No it's not. You can use all 6 channels that it has in it. The DVD button on the remote toggles between digital input and 6 chan analog input.

On the HK....
"-The only problem as I can see, is that it is a bit underpowered with only 50 watts.-"

The diff. between 50W and 100W (if both actually measure exactly that in whichever Recs.) is only 3db. Real world speaking... 3db of max SPL probably shouldn't be a make or break reason to buy or not buy it.

Unless you have high effi. speakers someone could say 50W isn't underpowered... your speakers are just not effi. enough.

A 91db speaker w/ 'only' 50W can hit the same SPL's as an 88db speaker w/ 100W.

For the money people can save on buying one of these all digital Recs. over a 'high end' pile of gear they could put that savings into better/higher effi speakers (which are typically the larger/more costly models of most speaker lines).

I think that's sound logic looking at the big picture rather than just thinking it won't work with the speakers you already own.

"-If so, that would mean that it could be used to in 7 channel stereo mode to provide a system with 7 channels of amplification when used as an amplifier.-"

Yeah it could 'probably' be used that way.

But I assume you don't mean you want to listen to 7 chan. stereo and you actually mean you'd like to use all those channels to power one pair of speakers?

Well... you couldn't do anything w/ the center channel amp, so if it processed perfect stereo for the rest (which it might not do) then you could tri-amp a pair of speakers if you have tri-ampable speakers.

Most 3-way speakers are only bi-ampableat best (unless you crack 'em open and mod them yourself).
Personally I have 2-way speakers so it wouldn't do me any good.

What speakers do you have?

"-Does the HK DPR-1001 implement the digital amplifiers in a similar way as the Sony Direct Digital, or Panasonic SA-XR45?-"

No. They're all diff. It's like saying which of these Recs. should I get since they're all solid state.
It says pretty much nothing that they're all 100% digital.

Pannie uses Equibit chips now made by Tex. In. (which have been around for over 10 years in TacT Audio amps).

Sony is their own fairly new (from Mitsu I think?) S-Master Pro chips which is a DSD-like PLM method. They're on their 3rd gen. implementation.

HK used Apogee's chips but looks to now be using D2's chips in their 2005 Rec.

I saw D2 at the CES but I didn't get a chance to see what makes that design tick. Looks like it'll have 100W x 8 though in one neat car amp-looking block so maybe that's why the switch from Apogee.

I had the Sony 2000ES (120W x 7) for a full month along with the Pannie XR25 (similar, but not the same 45 that Bolder is modding).

The Sony had a bad noise problem whereas the Pannie has NO noise at any level, but beyond that the Sony actually seemed a little better, but I came to find the high end was stabbing my ears.

I got the $800 Sony for $500 so I was sure it was a no-brainer that I'd keep it for HT but still look for a killer 2-chan. system, but I ended up returning it and I now think the Pannie's XR45 is the better stock design to mod.
In stock form none I've heard are world class IMO.

Maybe if Sony gets their act together in the future. We'll see... they don't seem to really care.

For it's $800 cost the 2000ES has a cool looking face, but everything else is about as cheap as the Pannie's low quality. Their 'ES' line should be called 'B.S.'!

None of these mass market companies (even slightly more respected HK) seem to really be trying to get the BEST performance out of these all digital systems.
They're using 'all digital' 'cuz it's cheap.

They have the potential to be great in sound quality, but it seems very easy to make an all digital Rec. that total fail to approach this 'potenital'.

Till a high end company takes a stab at this (read: don't hold your breath waiting or expect a dirt cheap price) it looks like modding these will be the only option.

[intelonetwo]

Hi azryan thanks for the indepth and knowledgable reply to my question.  First let me clarify a few points, then I will get into reply.  

No it's not. You can use all 6 channels that it has in it. The DVD button on the remote toggles between digital input and 6 chan analog input.

I read over at the Newform Research website that they were only able to use 4 of the 6 channels available on the Panasonic SA-XR45's  6ch input.  Below is a qoute.  
Newform Research Website, in the What New August 2003 Update.  

We can only utilize 4 of the Panasonics 6 channels. Still this adds up to 200w per channel

Does this just mean that they are only using 4 of the available channels, when in fact as you stated I can use all 6 channels as slave amplifier to feed, say a Home Theater Processor through the 6 channel inputs?  

I have a pair of DIY speakers, that I built, they are called the TailWind.  Below is a picture.  



They are basically a two design on the top module (Wind Module) (0 featuring two Peerless 6.5" CSX drivers in a D'Appolito configuration with a Vifa PL27 tweeter providing the high freqs.  The crossovers are a custom non-biwirable design made by Curt Campbell of Nebraska.  

The bottom module  (Tail Module), is a dual woofer design using Peerless CSX 8" drivers driven by an A/D/S 150-200 watt subwoofer amplifier.  They sound great.  I am actually about to design a matching center channel, subwoofer and two pairs of rears.  I have no desire to biamp the speakers.  

Sorry for that detour, but getting back on track.  

At present I do not have a HT Processor, but when I get on I want to be able to use the receiver that I buy after these talks as a slave multi channel amplifier.  That way I do not have to buy a multi-channel amplifer to go with the HT Processor.  I currently have a 7.1 home theater.    

With regard to the underpowered issue, I am not much worried about it, my speakers are plenty efficient.

Well... you couldn't do anything w/ the center channel amp, so if it processed perfect stereo for the rest (which it might not do) then you could tri-amp a pair of speakers if you have tri-ampable speakers.

This is the way that I want to use the unit after I actually get a dedicated HT Processor.  This would mean that if it in fact had available at least 6 channels of amplifier power I would be ok with 6 channels.

Knowing my situation what would you purchase?  Keep in mind that while I do agree with your suggestion to have any of the digital units modded by someone who can significatly upgrade the performance of these machines, it is not something I am going to spend the money on.  I am a starving student, so what is in the box is what I got to play with.  Maybe when I become more affluent I will splurdge a bit, uh.

[azryan]

Newform is using a digital x-over that can create a 2-way and I think even could create a 3-way output to drive all 6 channels. of the Pannie.

6 channels is meaninless for Newform though 'cuz they are a 2-way design so 4 amps is all you can put on them.

Yes, you can use all 6 analog inputs on the Pannie to run 6 speakers making it just an 6 chan. intergrated amp (just like almost ANY Rec. will do), BUT just like the Newform example...

These both miss the full potential of this Rec. and why it's so cool and why Wanye here is even bothering to mod it.

Just send one digital cable to the Pannie and let it do everything in a 'full digital' path. That's the real goldmine point of this unit.

Since your speakers can only accept a single set of wire you can only use the main speaker chan. amps on your speakers so none of this matter at all for you.

Not sure about the effi. rating of your speakers but you should be able to play the Pannie loud and dynamic even with just the main amps.
Then also use all the other channels for those speakers in HT setting if you want.

"-At present I do not have a HT Processor, but when I get on I want to be able to use the receiver that I buy after these talks as a slave multi channel amplifier. That way I do not have to buy a multi-channel amplifer to go with the HT Processor. I currently have a 7.1 home theater.
With regard to the underpowered issue, I am not much worried about it, my speakers are plenty efficient.-"

The Pannie's got 6 chan. of amps so you'd need one other amp obviously to power your 7 main channels.
Wayne who owns an outstanding 7 Lexicon pre/pro and really nice Parasound amps found that the sound quality improvment of using the Pannie and just a 5.1 system to be better for him.

I personally did 7.1 (actually 6.1 w/ a phantom center but dual pair of surrounds) in my room and I found dual surrounds to be a waste for me and went back to a 4.1 system.

What works depends on the room and speakers used, but you might consider a 6.1 system, but I know a lot of people think 'more is better'. (IMO, front surrounds would great but we don't have that option -yet).

I'd take a much better sounding and much cheaper costing 6.1 system over a less quality/more $$ 7.1 system any day. It's a no-brainer choice IMO.

Using the analong inputs will not max out this Pannie, but it should still sound better than a cheap solid state Rec used as amps so you could use it like that, and it's a good deal. Not sure if it'd really be worth modding though when you won't be using it as intended.

There are some great deals on acutal dedicated multichan amps you might want to look into if you were considering a cheap cost/sounding solid state Rec.

The way you word it at the end it seems like you're saying you want to tri-amp your main speakers or something? I don't really get what you want to do so I'll just tell you what I think you should do since you asked.

Get the Pannie and get it modded and it'll cost you about $1,000 total and use it to power a 6 channel surround system, and get a good tight/powerful sub, and enjoy.

Even for the mod cost you can't get a pre/pro and amps for this price so if you claim you're poor this it your best option.

Or just get the Pannie and use it unmodded. You'll still match more costly options, though it'll be far from World Class.

[intelonetwo]

I just ordered a Panasonic SA-XR45 and matching Panasonic DVD-F85 DVD-Audio player.  I think two should be a nice combo for now.