[daddydoom]

I would like to here some opinions on getting a new MC phono stage or buying a step up transformer for my current MM phono stage.

I currently have a Bryston B100 intergrated with a built in MM phono stage, but I am not satisfied with the sound of my turntable setup. I love the amp and the BCD-1, but the turntable sounds a little flat. The BCD-1 out perform the TT easily and it shouldn't.

I have a Thorens TD 160HD with a Ortofon 212D tonearm and use the 2M Black cart which should sound better than it does. I have had this setup for about 1 year and have tweaked until I'm crazy, so I am going to try a MC cart to see if it will help.

One question is what if any advantages is there in a step up transformer over just a new MC phono stage.
And two do you think a tube phono stage fit with my setup.
I Know that synergy has a lot to do with the sound
Any advice sure would be appreciated.


Matt

[neobop]

Have you heard this TT set-up through any other phono? The reason I ask, is maybe the combo of arm/cart isn't ideal. I don't know the specifics of the arm, but it might be a little heavy for the cartridge. I have an Ortofon M20FL Super, with a dynamic compliance of 20, and it sounds a little sluggish in an arm with an eff mass of 16g. Your Black has a compliance of 22cu and weighs more, around 7g. Might be worth investigating.

One thing to keep in mind, if you get a tranny or head amp, you'll be running through the same phono stage, unless you replace that too.

EDIT: One thing I forgot to mention - the 2M carts have lots of inductance. Make sure the cables are as short as possible and any capacitance settings on the lowest.

If you get a MC, make sure it's a good match with your arm.

[daddydoom]

Thanks for the reply neobop,

Compliance is something I didn't think about. I purchased the tonearm and cart from Gearge Merrill in Memphis and he said they were a perfect match, so I never really looked into it.

I have not been able to find any info on the eff mass other than a quote saying it was a medium mass tonearm. I read a thread @ vinylengine that said a rule of thumb would be that high mass + low compliance and low mass + high compliance. Does that sound right. If so, what would a medium compliant range be. Buying a new cartridge would be the cheapest thing to try at this point. If that doesn't work then maybe I'll try a new phono stage and bypass the one in my amp.

thanks again

Matt

[neobop]

Matt,
That's basically right - about compliance. If Merrill said they're a good match, then I expect they are. The traditional method of computing resonant frequency based on arm mass/compliance has been re-thunk recently by Luckydog on VE. Interesting, but I guess that's not the problem here.

The 2M Black is reputed to be an excellent cart. Was it new when you got it? The reason I ask is the shibata tip doesn't have the longevity of the micros. It should be checked after around 800 hrs.

It just seems to me that it would make sense to figure out why you're not getting the performance now. You could invest in a new cart and phono stage, only to eventually find out it was a crappy stock tonearm cable at fault, or something like that. I'm assuming you've checked the alignment, VTF, etc. Have clean records?

[daddydoom]

neo,
I have spent the last several hours doing research and have found that the cart/tonearm combo is not a good match. One article said that the tonearm was not a good match for any MM carts. that it was designed for the Ortofon spu cart.

Now comes the time to decide. A new tonearm or a new step up or MC phono stage and cart.

Thank you very much for your time and input. You have helped solve a problem that i have been having for a long time.

Matt

[neobop]

No problem. I suggest you investigate further. Did the articles say what the actual eff mass is? Maybe Ortofon can help. It might not be astronomical. The SPU carts come with headshell, and are massive.

So you know, any mass added or subtracted from the headshell, will have a direct effect on the eff mass. If you have a 12g shell, and substitute a Technics (7.4g w/wires), you've reduced the eff mass by 4.6g. You still might need a stiffer cart if you keep the arm, I don't know.

[valvesnvinylfan]

Hi Matt, indeed the compliance of your cartridge will definitely be affected by the arm's effective mass, which will depend on the headshell's mass as neobop mentioned; do you happen to know the model # on your headshell? If you do, you can load the arm/headshell mass and cartridge figures into a spreadsheet found on the analog dept. website:

http://www.theanalogdept.com/cartridge___arm_matching.htm

You can also find the calculator directly by going here: http://www.theanalogdept.com/images/spp6_pics/Alignment%20Spreadsheet/RF.xls

Hope this helps!

[valvesnvinylfan]

*sorry* --should've said, tonearm + headshell mass, and just saw you mentioned not knowing what the tonearm's mass is; I haven't found anything yet either.

[daddydoom]

Thanks for the links valvesnvinlyfan.
I can see that this is going to take a little time.

Now that i know that the Ortofon black is not going to work. I am going to go ahead with the M/C cart.

back to my original question. M/C phono stage or step up. Which is the best move quality wise. My B100 has a pretty good MM stage. So a step up might work well. Though MC stage would be more versitile, because i would be able to use it if I ever change my amp.

Any opinion about what to look for and what to stay away from would be welcome.
My price range is around $1500.00

You guy's have been very helpful.
Thanks

Matt

[Stu Pitt]

I have a Bryston B60 with MM stage and use a high output MC cart (Dynavector 10x5) with great results.

All MCs aren't low output.  Also, all MCs don't sound better than all MMs (although in my experience most do).  I'd decide on a cart on its own sound quality (not design) then figure out what you need to match it up with.

I hear Bryston's MC stage is very good.  I haven't tried it, but I'd imagine its at least on the same level as your current stage.

[neobop]

Hey, check this out:
http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/auc.pl?preaphon&1267759053&auc&3&4&

[95Dyna]

Thanks for the links valvesnvinlyfan.
I can see that this is going to take a little time.

Now that i know that the Ortofon black is not going to work. I am going to go ahead with the M/C cart.

back to my original question. M/C phono stage or step up. Which is the best move quality wise. My B100 has a pretty good MM stage. So a step up might work well. Though MC stage would be more versitile, because i would be able to use it if I ever change my amp.

Any opinion about what to look for and what to stay away from would be welcome.
My price range is around $1500.00

You guy's have been very helpful.
Thanks

Matt

Hi daddydoom,

Since you have experience with an Ortofon cartridge you may already be aware of the Ortofon Verto step up.  I've been investigating this question as well having bought a Bryston BP26P(MM) last year and now am sorry I didn't buy the 26MC.  I spoke to a Bryston/Ortofon dealer who told me the Verto works very well with the Bryston MM stage.  Unlike the B100, the BP26B can be upgraded to the MC by sending it back to the factory so I have that option as well and the cost is only $800.00.  Unfortunately that option doesn't exist for the B100.  The Verto retails for about $900.00.  Not a bad deal.  Also consider that your MM stage is the same one deployed in Bryston's top of the line BP 1.5.  The MM section has responsibility for the maintenance of the RIAA curve as well as 35 or 41 db of gain.  The Bryston MC whether the external or internal stage just adds step ups to provide 16.5 or 22.5 db gain.  Point being the MM stage is a good one and you shouldn't fear using it in front of a step up.

Regards,

Bill

[neobop]

Price range $1500 for the step-up? How about the cartridge?

I think it would make more sense to consider them both at the same time. I go straight into a phono stage, but step-ups have impedance matching considerations, that is if you're using a transformer. Some LOMCs have only a few ohms impedance. Others have 30 or 40 ohms.

[daddydoom]

Thanks guys,

I have spent the last week doing a lot a research. and my conclusion was to stay with the MM stage. As 95dyna stated it is a quality unit.
I decided to purchase a new cart instead. I bought the Sumiko Blackbird and was that ever a great purchase. Just finished setting it up and OMG was there ever a difference. Although it's not broken in. The soundstage and bass was unbelievable. It can only get better with time. They say it takes about 50 hrs. to break in. Now it sounds like I thought it should.

Not saying the 2M black is a bad cart. It just did not fit my setup. Time to put it on A'gon and help with the cost of the blackbird.

Thanks again for everyones help. This is a great forum and i always learn a lot

Matt

 Now if you will excuse me I have some vinyl to spin