[BobM]

I've made quite a few upgrades this past year, replacing my cartridge (now using a Transfiguration Temper), CD player (with an Ayre CX7e-MP) and amp (McCormack DNA 500 just received last week). Last night I sat down to run a test. I took the same recording having the same mastering (very important) on both CD and vinyl and played them side by side, starting at the same point and then just changing the selector on the preamp. Yes, levels were matched.

Damn if I could tell the difference in a blind test. Perhaps the vinyl had a little more open and spacious top end. Perhaps the CD had a little better bass. I'm really picking nits here, because I really couldn't tell one form the other when the music was playing (when idle the tubed phono stage has a slightly higher noise floor than the CD player). Even tonally the 2 sources were spot on the same to my ears.

So, did I reach nirvana? I know a lot of you vinyl heads are going to say there's something wrong with my analogue rig. But the sound is awesome. I really love the Ayre player. It is certainly up to the level of a high quality analogue rig, and I never thought I would ever be able to say that.

I need to keep my hands off things so I don't mess it up and just enjoy the tunes without havng to ask "which medium do I want to play today" first.

Enjoy,
Bob

[TheChairGuy]

Bob,

I'm finding some of the same things.

I chalk it up to a couple factors:

* Aging.  My ears at 47 simply don't hear the high frequency superiority of vinyl over digital technologies anymore.  No matter how well you treat yourself, we're all on a slippery slope in hearing prowess.

* Technological progress.  CD and digital playback (and maybe more importantly, recording) has gotten their 'groove' over the past 30 years at what is now remarkably reasonable prices.

CD, even the cheapo players today, is a much better playback technology than I ever thought it could be a few years ago.  Of course, I was younger and could hear treble extension further out then...but, I think that the technology has progressed much over and above my declining hearing would suggest

For me, only with a rigidly, speed controlled turntable (which often means direct drive for me), with a 10+" arm with damping for better tracing distortion and a Grado cartridge (which to me offers a more natural sound than any other) is the only combination of vinyl that consistently betters my digital rig today.

I sit back with this combo and just say 'ahhhh, this is beautiful, real sounding music'

A few other combination of turntable, cartridges, etc that I own are on par with my digital rig...but, it's only the above combo that still regularly is preferred over digital.

I guess that's as it should be.  Technology of the 1970's should be as good as or better than one from the 1870's 

John

[woodsyi]

I wouldn't go that far with Redbook in my set up but I know 24/96 (the highest bit/rate I can play for now) gets very close to analog. 

[JakeJ]

In my opinion it is indicative of how much digital mastering and playback have improved since its inception.

Can you imagine what a 78 RPM lacquer or hard wax disc played back on a hand wound, spring driven Victrola sounded like?  Its been 110 years for the phonograph to get to today's sound quality.  Yet it's been a scant 40 years to get digital to a place that's competitive (and sometimes surpasses) its vinyl counterpart.  The technological advances of these two comparisons is what is really astounding.

Just my .02.

JakeJ

[woodsyi]

I hope I am open minded about the future of digital music.  In my limited understanding, I am squeamish about reconstituted waveforms.  No dried mushroom ever tastes like fresh ones.  In the same vein, I just wonder if we aren't losing something the moment every thing is turned into bits.  There could be something, (nth order harmonics or higher order modulations we are unaware of in the analog waveform) that doesn't get reconstituted.  Is it just the amplitude and timing?  Or is there more in a music signal?  With higher power computing, mathematical transformations can really recreate any shape, but can it be the same?  What do we lose in a photograph of a Mona Lisa versus the original?

[JakeJ]

<snip>
What do we lose in a photograph of a Mona Lisa versus the original?

Roughly $710 million, according to Wikipedia.     Seriously, though, it's much easier to fool my old ears.

[BobM]

I guess I forgot about the aging factor of my body and ears, in particular. Thanks for reminding me of that (buzzkill). 

I guess it's a bit like senility setting in, where every day is a new adventure. Ah hell, I'm just going to go back to listening and enjoying the music. Scew y'all. 

[TheChairGuy]

Sorry Bob 

[JakeJ]

I guess I forgot about the aging factor of my body and ears, in particular. Thanks for reminding me of that (buzzkill). 

I guess it's a bit like senility setting in, where every day is a new adventure. Ah hell, I'm just going to go back to listening and enjoying the music. Scew y'all. 

Oh yeah?  Well,  just because I am "scewed" doesn't mean I'm wrong.  Just means I need marinated and BBQ'd. 

[95Dyna]

Bob,

I'm finding some of the same things.

I chalk it up to a couple factors:

* Aging.  My ears at 47 simply don't hear the high frequency superiority of vinyl over digital technologies anymore.  No matter how well you treat yourself, we're all on a slippery slope in hearing prowess.

Don't despair, Chairguy.  At 59 I am hearing the high frequency extension superiority of SACD over the CD layer.  No, I haven't done any blind tests because the difference is obvious to me.  Now I'll soon be ordering a new VPI Classic with Benz Wood SL and look forward to putting it into the mix.  I haven't placed my order yet so am interested in your endorsement of the Grado cartridge. 

[TheChairGuy]

I hear the superiority of DVD-A, too, over CD/Redbook....but am increasingly of the belief that it's mostly or solely the more careful mastering of the recording on DVD-A (which tends to be a more specialist crowd buying them)

But, I hear the better 'air' or extension, too, and I don't think that is related to better recording and mastering.  It sure sounds more powerful and full, too, as it is a format with 144db of dynamic range (versus 96db for redbook).  So, I don't know. 

There's some long running debate over in the Bryston circle that no one can tell the difference between formats in the end when music is played at the same volume level.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=70893.0

SACD just sounds 'weird' to me.  I've read that it is an innate and incurable phasing issue (which I didn't know I was attuned particularly, too, frankly)

I do love my Grado's (and answered your PM on the subject a few minutes ago), but they do indeed interact with some turntables and cause hum.

Regards, John

[95Dyna]

I hear the superiority of DVD-A, too, over CD/Redbook....but am increasingly of the belief that it's mostly or solely the more careful mastering of the recording on DVD-A (which tends to be a more specialist crowd buying them)

But, I hear the better 'air' or extension, too, and I don't think that is related to better recording and mastering.  It sure sounds more powerful and full, too, as it is a format with 144db of dynamic range (versus 96db for redbook).  So, I don't know. 

There's some long running debate over in the Bryston circle that no one can tell the difference between formats in the end when music is played at the same volume level.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=70893.0

SACD just sounds 'weird' to me.  I've read that it is an innate and incurable phasing issue (which I didn't know I was attuned particularly, too, frankly)

I do love my Grado's (and answered your PM on the subject a few minutes ago), but they do indeed interact with some turntables and cause hum.

Regards, John

Thanks for your input here and in the PM, John.  I was in the fray over at Bryston but dropped out of the thread beacause I tired of being told by a participant that I wasn't hearing what I hear.  You can argue the physics and the math of these different formats till the cows come home but I maintain after all these years there is something metaphysical that happens between there and one's brain and it differs for everyone.  A perfect example is you feel that SACD sounds "wierd" to you and I think it sounds glorious.  I wouldn't think of trying to tell you don't know what you're talking about because for you as a unique individual it is true that SACD sounds wierd.  It's great we have so many diverse ways to receive our music.  There's something for everybody.

[TheChairGuy]

It's great we have so many diverse ways to receive our music.  There's something for everybody.

Amen to that, brother . The myriad of differences between all of us - due to genetics, nurture, lifestyle, socio/psychological, etc - all make for profound and unique differences in what we hear.

Add in weather, mood, age, hearing acuity and the differences broaden.

Few are right and fewer still are wrong in any sonic evaluation....ultimately, we are all right as the passion of music is unique to each one of us   

John

[BobM]

There's some long running debate over in the Bryston circle that no one can tell the difference between formats in the end when music is played at the same volume level.

Well ... there's some debate on whether Bryston "people" can hear at all. But that's a topic for another discussion. 

[95Dyna]

Well ... there's some debate on whether Bryston "people" can hear at all. But that's a topic for another discussion. 

Well, now there's a broad brush insult if I ever heard one.  I have Bryston amps and as previously posted I can hear the differences between SACD and CD in the high frequencies (at age 59 no less).  Does that make me a Bryston "people".  Before you answer consider that my speakers, sources and cables are not Bryston.

[kgturner]

no, this is nirvana:



*i can't believe nobody has said this yet.

[AudioSoul]

  The differences between digital and analogue are not just whether you can  or cannot hear frequency extremes. Digital music has artifacts that the brain does not process. In analogue the brain recognises this domain and can process the music better. Don't flame me, I read this somewhere.....