[Tyson]

J North, I agree.  The Panny is certainly not "tube-like", it has a solid state type of sound.  Perhaps Solid State sound taken to it's ultimate expression (ie, non-blurred, supremely transparent, very focused, very precise, superb dynamics).  Like I said before, I don't think digital technology (in the panny or any other implementation) will replace tubes or vinyl.  I do think it will replace solid state amps and preamps, and D/A converters, of course.

Tubes still have their place, but solid state will probably die off.

[Tyson]

In fact, I'll make another prediction, that Direct Digital will pretty much take over the audio world (expect for tube lovers of course), and the next "hot" audio after-marked category will be super high-fidelity A/D converters

[J North]

Tyson,

I agree with your prediction but I will go one step further. I believe that once they get this direct digital technology "perfected" (I don't think we are quite there yet), "real-time" DSP's will get to the stage that they will be able to replicate the "tube effect". This technology will be miles above the silly "concert-hall" modes in today's HT receivers. The modes will be user adjustable/selectable. Also, cross-overs will disappear from speakers, and the signal will be split in the digital domain, as the digital amplifier modules are relatively inexpensive.

I don't want to speculate where speaker design/technology will go.

In the mean time, I will enjoy what is available to me today. I think we are 3 to 5 years away from *my vision* of the above DSP technoology.
Some of us will hold onto our tubes forever, though. I can see some enterprising audio company coming out with an ALL digital amplifer that has tubes on it for "show". I won't be buying that!

[J North]

Taking it one step further:

These DSP's will handle room correction, crossover duties (matched to the speakers), and will be able to "tune" (this is part of the tube effect) your system to "more accurately" represent the live recording venue. All user selectable of course. There will be extra info on CD's, SACDS, DVD-A's and the latest software that will provide "tuning information" to the DSP. This will also be all downloadable, even for your older software. You may have different settings for different recordings.

Later on, "blue ray" or whatever hi-rez disks will contain the individual tracks from each instrument and voice from a band's studio recording. Your music system will then "mix and process" the tracks, match it to your room, amplifiers, speakers and mood.

I better go now . . .

[Mathew_M]

...what you describe sounds very cool but if anything like that were to come about it would be PC based.  It would be a niche market for those who would want to tamper with the way music is 'displayed'.  Kind of like re-editing a movie.  Most people including editors  themselves would care less.  The philes usually just want it presented as close to the artists original intentions.

A lot of people like myself would like a system with both tubes and digital but keep them separate.  I love the sound of jazz through a good EL34 tube amp.  However a El34 based tube amp has difficulty with bass and dynamics making it not so good for large orchestras or even rock.  I want to keep the one pair of speakers but just have a switch to toggle between tubes and digital.

Have you tried Wayne's tube amps on your 40's yet Tyson?  
What about the 626's?  Tube or Panny?

[JoshK]

I've tried, tube, SS and digital on my 40's, although not a pure digital stream, ala panny.  I had a Cary V12i (El34 based triple parralled triode) which sucked on the bass (however, it did do texture right) and was brittle, or to quote another 'phile 'pion, splashy, on the highs.  The SS, even the really high class, high dollar ones were lacking in many regards.  

The Spectron, although not perfect has no definiable weakness.  I will state for the record, that one VMPS dealer, who I will leave unnamed, did a shoot out between the Spectron MII and another neo SS amp.   His conslusions (no matter how much the neo SS amp might be better) are moot.  I asked him one question, and based on that one question, I can tell you will most certain authority (based not only on mine but 2 other VMPS RM40/Spectron MII owner's collective knowledge) that his results were severly tainted by the fact that his RM40's were tuned horribly wrong for the Spectron amp.  The Spectron amp doesn't behave like many/most SS amps with the tuning.  It is much closer to a high powered tube amp in many regards which in my experience is much different.   For these reasons (and many others unsaid) I dismiss his opinions as accurate of what an owner would acheive.  That said, I don't doubt the unsaid neo-SS amp was all what it is said to be.

One more thing I will say about the Spectron is that it is horribly sensitive to vibration and only careful attention to isolation will yield its best results.  The tweaks most often touted on forums for the Spectron and inline with John U's own opinion are in regards to vibration control.  RFI/EMI attention should also be made.  ERS shielding will *probably* (I will test very soon) add lots of value to this amp.  *I* prefer, so far, shielded cords for this amp, but it is relatively indifferent of design.  

Back to subject at hand, I too will likely break up my systems in my new pad to be vinyl/tube/2channel and cdl/ht/mc/digital in another.  Goals being different, sound acheived being different.  Different moods, different ultimate sounds.

[J North]

"what you describe sounds very cool but if anything like that were to come about it would be PC based. It would be a niche market for those who would want to tamper with the way music is 'displayed'. Kind of like re-editing a movie. Most people including editors themselves would care less. The philes usually just want it presented as close to the artists original intentions."

You are right that it may be PC based to start with.

I disagree that it will be Niche based. It will be automated on a few chips. This is about getting the best sound possible in your home matching your room, speakers and everything else. What the recording engineer does in the studio is at best a compromise for radio, cars, headphones and a gazillion other ways/places of listening to music. He has ultimate control on the mix. A DSP automated mixing system for your home will mix the tracks optimally for your home. There will be all kinds of "hint" data on the media to help the DSP achieve its goals/  With a system such as I described, the sound in your home will be SCARY REAL. You may even have speakers with several different types of drivers (ribbon, electrostat, cone) with the sound being sent to the one that best reproduces that particular sound.

For those with a lot of time on their hands, they can do the manual mixing that you are talking about.

it would make a great Kareoke Machine as well!

The only thing that may supercede this is some completely new speaker technology that renders everything we have now obsolete. They will produce sound in a way that we can only imagine right now. This technology will also be used in microphones to record as accurately as possible.

I will not predict a timeline for the above.

Interesting to see where technology is taking us . . .

[DARTH AUDIO]

I have been living with 2 digital amps for about 3 months. I have combinded Tubes and Digital for one awesome sound. I used to have an EL34 based amp and truley enjoyed jazz through it. But untill you have heard a "High Quality" Class D switching amp (I ordered the Spectron Musician III), you haven't heard all of your music. Oh my Gosh the power!! 500 watts a side. The highs are sooo real, crisp, detailed. The lows are tight, deep, and authoritative. The mids are "Smooth" more "Real" sounding. The Class D amps are so fast, Micro and Macro dynamics kick butt!! But the biggest thing I noticed was all the music I was missing This amp is soo INVOLVING!! All my source gear is tube and it's a match made in heaven. I've been reading where people are trying to compare a $400.00 Panny to a high quality Class D amps. IMHO, you can't.. This amp will be with me for a long Time.. Give one a try.

BTW, That's my 2 cents.. For what it's worth..

[Mathew_M]

Darth, on a smaller scale I have tried the same:  running a tubed cdp into the Panny.  The typical tube traits of fullness and liquidity came through but at the sake of a veiling and slurring of the sound.  The two were seemingly working against each other.

I agree with Josh that there are music and moods that require different sets of gear.  After hearing a couple of all tube systems I definately lust after that intoxicating sound at times.  Other times I want that thunderous bass and lightening quick, crystaline presentation that a digital based setup can bring.  Trying to gel the two seems like a cheat.  However that is just with my lowly setup.

[randog]

Back to subject at hand, I too will likely break up my systems in my new pad to be vinyl/tube/2channel and cdl/ht/mc/digital in another. Goals being different, sound acheived being different. Different moods, different ultimate sounds.

Hi Josh, funny you say that. I've done just that recently. I backed off on my original plans of an outstanding (for me) 2-channel/HT combined system, took a step back, and tailored it back to build a classic McIntosh tube setup for the master bedroom. I also moved my vinyl rig to it and decided my main 2ch/HT rig would be CD/DVD specific. Now with all this Panny noise I may be able to simplify that system even further... nice.  

What better place for the lush, smooth sound of toobs than in the bedroom, eh?

Randog

[DARTH AUDIO]

Mathew, All I can say is you can't compare the $400.00 Panny to a $4000.00 Spectron Musician III or the Tact The Technology isn't the same. Have you heard either the Spectron or the Tact? With tube gear? You should get to a store and give these amps a listen. Be careful though, You might not want to leave [/quote]

[vpolineni]

Mathew, All I can say is you can't compare the $400.00 Panny to a $4000.00 Spectron Musician III or the Tact.

The panny and the tact use the same digital chipset.. so I think that you could compare them... i'm sure the tact has a better power supply, etc... but with wayne's mods, I think it would be fair to compare it to his modded sa-xr45.

[Rob Babcock]

I don't want to put words in his mouth, but I think Tyson has compared the modded Panny to a Spectron digital amp and found the (highly modded) Panasonic bested it.  Again, you'd have to check with Tyson, but he's not prone to hyperbole and has owned some very nice gear.

So, Darth, have you heard the modded Panasonic unit?  Just curious.  At first blush you wouldn't think it could hold its own but the proof is in the pudding, as they say.  Me, I haven't heard either, just pointing out that some guys who have found the '45 to be a shocker.

[Tyson]

I have heard the Spectron in 2 systems, mine and the owners.  IMO, the modded panny sounded better in my system than the Spectron II did.  Mind you it was not a direct A-B comparison, far from it.  But the Spectron did not sound better to me than my AVA gear did.  Different, but not better.  The modded Panny sounds better than the AVA gear, but only via the digital input.

From what I understand the Spectron is going to be able to accept a digital input and will be able to "keep it digital" all the way to the output modules like the Panny does.  Now "that" would be an interesting comparison  Mainly because re-digitizing an analog signal like the Spectron (and many other digital amps do), is putting them at a disadvantage.  Accepting a digital input should REALLY show what the Spectron is truly capable of.

[dwk]

The panny and the tact use the same digital chipset.. so I think that you could compare them... i'm sure the tact has a better power supply, etc... but with wayne's mods, I think it would be fair to compare it to his modded sa-xr45.

At the risk of being overly nit-picky and accurate, this is not quite true.

The Panny and the Tact both use Equibit modulation techniques based on the technology that TI has purchased from Toccatta. However, they use different implementations of the same basic approach, and so there are some very good reasons why the Tact could/should/might perform better.

There is more info on the TI site and some good discussions over on diyaudio, but the quick point is that the quality of the Equibit approach seems to ultimately depend on the quality of the ~386kHz modulation clock. Jitter on this clock will affect the performance similarly to jitter on the master clock in conventional DAC's. In the Panny units, this clock is derived via an internal non-bypassable PLL from the I2S MCLOCK, and so the performance of this PLL puts a pretty hard upper bound on the ultimate performance of the unit.  It is a virtual certainty that Tact will use an external stable reference clock here, allowing it to achieve significantly better performance.  There are other areas where the TI chips appear to comprimise performance somewhat as well - the oversampling digital filter, and the output bridge timing params being the next most obvious.
 Of course, the power supply and associated elements are also important, but those can probably be modded on the Panny to get close. The clock issue is not moddable/fixable, though.

I'm sliding into some not-quite-justified speculation here, but it looks like one of the somewhat unique properties of the Equibit chips is that they are potentially capable of very low IMD levels. I suspect that this is due to the zero-feedback nature of their modulators. Jitter on the modulation clock and effects of the output bridges will certainly raise the IMD, but *it's possible* that low IMD might contribute to the sound quality of these units