Images - true or false?

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James Tanner

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Re: Images - true or false?
« Reply #20 on: 29 Jan 2010, 09:39 pm »
Is this combination better sounding than the 3.7 alone?

Hi Dyna,

This combo goes lower but I still think the 3.7 has a greater dynamic capability.

james

James Tanner

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Re: Images - true or false?
« Reply #21 on: 29 Jan 2010, 09:40 pm »
James -
Are those Thiells coaxial?  I think that's the right term - tweeter in the middle of the driver like in car speakers.

Of the ones I've heard, they've all imaged and soundstaged phenominally with a very cohesive sound.  Their downfall has been they didn't go very high or low in frequency.

I'd be very interested in hearing your opinions/observations about them.

Hi Stu,

Yes coaxial as you described.

james

James Tanner

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Re: Images - true or false?
« Reply #22 on: 29 Jan 2010, 09:43 pm »
At only one point in front of each speaker though. It's not terribly useful, and phase has been shown to not make an audible difference anyway.

Then there are the major drawbacks of using a 1st-order crossover like increased IM, poor power-handling, lobing, etc.

Hi turkey,

Yes one of my first rules is ... given the never ending technical discussions we all involve ourselves in... the thing either works in the real world or it doesn't.  All I can tell you is in this room... this works! :drool:

james

James Tanner

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Re: Images - true or false?
« Reply #23 on: 29 Jan 2010, 09:51 pm »
Saw this on another forum and thought it was well presented:

"As far as playback goes, I would have to say speaker placement comes first.

This comes from my experience of hearing terrible speakers image in terrible rooms, terrible speakers image in good rooms, and vice versa.

At work, we had some sort of all in one DVD player receiver with small cube speakers(single drivers). And even in our concrete/metal room with windows on one side wall, I was still able to demonstrate to my co-workers what imaging and a soundstage was with proper speaker placement.

I've also had a few interesting experiences at home. I picked up a pair of Insignia/Best Buy speakers for my brother. For shits and giggles, I hooked them up to my main rig. Even with their terribly audible driver breakup and lumpy frequency response, they imaged much better than expected . The soundstage wasn't as good as my primary speakers and the images weren't as solid, but they did a pretty good job considering.

Another interesting experience was while tube rolling. I swapped out the preamp tubes in my Manley Stingray for another pair of the "supposedly" same tubes. The soundstage totally collapsed down to the same height of my speakers.

I have also found that transparent gear usually images better, but doesn't have as much of an effect on soundstage. And sometimes swapping out items such as cables(MIT) can have more of a profound effect on imaging and soundstage than changing other pieces of gear(CDP's, amps, etc...).

In conclusion, I believe placement is the most important factor, but any other link in the chain can also have a dramatic effect. "
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jethro

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Re: Images - true or false?
« Reply #24 on: 29 Jan 2010, 10:31 pm »
James:

What's the dreaded U-shaped soundstage ?

James Tanner

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Re: Images - true or false?
« Reply #25 on: 29 Jan 2010, 10:51 pm »
James:

What's the dreaded U-shaped soundstage ?

It's where your only getting images in the shape of a "U" around and between the speakers. 

So the stage is really deep in the middle but images come forward and sit in the speaker on the left and right extremes rather than expand out and back from each speaker.

james 

James Tanner

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Re: Images - true or false?
« Reply #26 on: 30 Jan 2010, 02:40 am »
Hi Scotty,

I just had Steve our Ontario rep here this morning and I currently have the Thiel SCS4's set up with the Thiel SS1 subs (2) and his comment was - "James I have never heard a better system - the speakers totally disappear!"

So far the Thiels seem to be giving me the best out of box experience and the sound stage is not the dreaded "U" shape.




james


"Hi James,

Some comments regarding my visit this morning:

My first comment is that the Thiels ability to create a LIFELIKE and three dimensional image in terms of real world size and space was most impressive. It has been my experience over the years that small speakers (minimonitors ) like the Thiels which have a small baffle diffraction  surface seem to have a better ability to portray well recorded materials imaging width, depth and height. (remember as far back as LS-3-5A's etc.)

What was so special was  not only the realistic size of the stage presentation in all dimensions but the absolute ease with which I could hear into the music, very much like the live experience. Voices and instruments were realistic in size, dimension and position, which is so rare. This is not to say that you couldn't do the same with a large speaker, it just seems much more difficult to achieve this than with a good small speaker. The speakers completely and totally disappeared from the system, and left nothing but the music, another very rare occurrence.

There is no question in my mind that this performance by the Thiels was due very much to careful speaker placement, and of course, very high quality Bryston system components driving the speakers. As always, everything in the system is important, but even a wonderful system will fail miserably in this regard if a lot of effort is not given to speaker placement.

Lastly, this experience seems to  reinforce that high resolution source material definitely makes a very positive difference in the ability of a system to do what I heard today. We keep on hearing the real and significant benefits we are enjoying these days by being able to listen to 88, 96, 176, and 192 /24 bit source material through the BDA-1.
 
I know this is long, but I'm in sales and can't help myself when I get excited and emotional about something like I heard this morning."

Regards,
Steve Brothman
Lab Acoustic Marketing
steve@labacoustic.com