[Sonny]

If you could, all you classice owners out there, post the following:

-Who set up the table for you?  Factory or custome.

-Mounting distance (spindle to pivot distance) in millimeters.  To do this, you must first remove the armwand then measure the distance from the center of the spindle to the pivot point.  Please make sure that the ruler is parallel

-What you used to set up the cartridge (what type of Cartridge).  Did you use the supplied Jig?  If you used multiple jigs, which sounds better?  Lofgren B? Baewald? Stevenson or VPI?

-What's the effective length of your set up, that's from the pivot to the stylus, if you know.  Or if you have the mounting distance, add that to the overhang.

Since Specs on VPI tables/tonearms are very confusing and there's no "real" published information, I'd like to know what you have...its greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Tuan

[JayB]

According to VPI, the effective length of the arm is 273 to 274mm and the mounting distance is 258 to 259mm. To tell you the truth, I'm not sure what this all means, but I am having Mint produce a protractor for me so they needed this data. I have already mounted my cartridge using the supplied protractor and things sound great. I thought I would give the Mint a try as it is not expensive and have heard good things about it. 

[Scottdazzle]

Tuan, I set mine up myself.  I used the supplied jig.  The only slight problem I had was that my cartridge (Zyx Airy 3) is too light so I had to use a 3g weight between the cart and the tonearm head.  Since it sounded better than any other source I've ever had, I did not change the vta or use damping fluid.  It sounded great from day one and I haven't changed a thing.   aa

[TheChairGuy]

Pretty much the same as Scotthobby here...except I used the damping fluid and a couple MM/MI cartridges that do best with fluid damping (typically)

Tuan - you still hearing voices? 

Ciao, John

[analogmart]

I've Scout Master with JMW 9 sig. and Shelter 501 combo. Mint Lp tractor is far more
close to distortion free compare to supplied jig. Even though, I consider supplied jig is better
than free download or regular protractor on the market, Mint Lp still is a choice to go.       

[Sonny]

Pretty much the same as Scotthobby here...except I used the damping fluid and a couple MM/MI cartridges that do best with fluid damping (typically)

Tuan - you still hearing voices? 

Ciao, John

John, oh yes, still hearing them for sure... It think the main problem is tracking in the inner grooves...no matter what alignment I use, Baerwald or Lofgren, it doesn't matter.  Perhaps it's anti-skating, I don't know...but using the Dynavector 20XL right now...and to me, this cartride tracks a 1000 percent better, but to my ears and IMHO, I think the Shelter sounds much much better...having said that, I am still playing with the loading.  I've settled on 100ohms over 59ohms, so far, but will try other values as well. 

Originally, my spindle to pivot distance was 258.7 mm or so when I got it back from VPI.  With the Shelter at that mounting distance, I was barely able to reach the effective length of 272.2 for Baewald and 273.4 on Lofgren...however, with the Dynavector, I was able to move the mounting distance to 262mm and still be able to reach the effective length, based on the new mounting distance of 262mm, on both the Baewald and Lofgren.  I guess because the cantilever on the 20XL is longer and is in the front of the cartridge body when compared to the 501. 

My story...and journey is still on the move, around curves...until I can find or reach the straight away where I can set in on auto pilot and enjoy the view...but we all know that curves are much more fun and interesting....for driving that is...not listening!

Tuan

[Sonny]

I've Scout Master with JMW 9 sig. and Shelter 501 combo. Mint Lp tractor is far more
close to distortion free compare to supplied jig. Even though, I consider supplied jig is better
than free download or regular protractor on the market, Mint Lp still is a choice to go.     

Yes, that's what I've heard, unfortunately, when I bought a used Mint LP protractor, I had the old JMW 10 tonearm, and now I have the 10.5i, which requires a long mounting distance....

So, I can't use the MINT LP...trying to sell it!!!  Any JMW 10 or 10.5 arm owners out there???

[TheChairGuy]

John, oh yes, still hearing them for sure... It think the main problem is tracking in the inner grooves...no matter what alignment I use, Baerwald or Lofgren, it doesn't matter.  Perhaps it's anti-skating, I don't know...but using the Dynavector 20XL right now...and to me, this cartride tracks a 1000 percent better, but to my ears and IMHO, I think the Shelter sounds much much better...having said that, I am still playing with the loading.  I've settled on 100ohms over 59ohms, so far, but will try other values as well. 

Tuan -I certainly don't want to get in any prolonged debate with anyone as I write the following...but are you sure you aren't hearing sibilance with the moving coils themselves?

While I totally get the allure of them, I've yet to find a moving coil that completely banishes the issue of sibilance (not that I ever listened to all of the market to know it all...but enough to get a good semblance of ideas for me).  The Grado's, ADC's and Stanton/Pickerings I've tried have zero fatigue to my ears (and I can judge them on other relative factors)...while the Ortofon, Blue Angel, Benz, Sumiko moving coils most definitely had a fatigue-factor to them.

The Denon DL-160vdH I have seems to exhibit the least amount of fatigue among the moving coils tried and is the best one I've listened to (and the price is rather reasonable)

To be fair, I don't know if that fatigue is necessarily 'sibilance'...but it is fatigue-inducing (to me), that I know.

Anyhow, food for thought - I thought your vinyl setup when heard there a couple months back sounded fine.  But I think all of us are more critical with our system in the quieter moments when we're listening solo at home.

I've got a bunch of extra MM/MI cartridges - feel free to ask me for one for extended use as a comparison basis if you don't already have one or more yourself

Regards, John

[Sonny]

John, thanks for your comments...I don't think to disagree with your evaluation of MC cartridges...I guess, there's a certain level of details that I like to get from MC cartridges, so I tend to deal with the sibilance.  The 20XL, also and MC, has less sibilance, at least for now with the loading I've tried, which is 59, 100 and right now 243 ohms.  I don't know what the recommended is, but I am going to keep playing around til I get the right one, then i will mod my DIY phono Curcio to to right value.

I may take you up on the offers of trying other cartridges...

Tuan

[Wayner]

Sonny,

What you are experiencing is actually "data" compression, in the analog version. When you put your needle down on the outside of the record, you have about 36" of travel per revolution. That distance is directly related to time. As the tonearm travels further inward, say in the middle of the record, it's distance has now been reduced to about 25" of travel per revolution. Towards the usual inner null point, that travel has been reduced to 18" per revolution.

So, as you can see, the music becomes more and more compressed as it moves towards the inner grooves, to a point where 1/2 the travel distance is playing the same amount of music. At about that point of the first null point (from the record center) is where lots of cartridges start to have problems handling the shear volume of "wiggles" and the result is distortion.

Now to add to that the fact that the cartridge quickly goes out of it's ideal tracking and tracking distortion goes up quickly results in the very audible mis-tracking and mis-alignment of the cartridge. Those nasty inner grooves are truly no-mans land.

The solutions are few. One is to increase the tracking weight of the cartridge, as the amount of information it is seeing at the end of the record is simply making the stylus jump right out of the grooves. Changing your null points will only help for a few moments, at the sacrifice of worse tracking distortion at the beginning of the record.

I have to take John's position in that the cartridge you have chosen is not a good match for your arm. The fact that you have had to add weight to it also proves that it is out of VPI's recommended carts for the table.

Wayner

[Sonny]

Thanks Wayner...that's why I've gone to the Dynavector 20XL...it tracks much better than the Shelter, but lacks the dynamics, extension and details that I get from the Shelter...again, my observation on my system...
Not saying here that the shelter sounds better or the 20xl tracks better in all systems...just with my JMW arm.
T

[TheChairGuy]

I may take you up on the offers of trying other cartridges...

Yeah, please, feel free to.

I have a Grado Green with Longhorn and shibata stylus and an ADC XLMII with preemo line stylus simply sitting in boxes.  They sound glorious, need only MM-sized amplification and sound glorious.  No sibilance that I can ever hear with them.

But, def not the outsized detail and spooky hair-raising internal quietness of MC's.

Sibilance bothers me far more than some loss of supposed detail and I choose that side of the equation.

VPI sells Grado's so they were likely used in the design of their arms/decks...so that might be the better match among the two.

Ciao, John

[Wayner]

Just remember (maybe this is for others), cause I'm sure you know this, but more damage can be done to vinyl with too little VTF, rather then too much (too a point). Unhappy contact of stylus in groove = bad! Always favor the slightly higher side of the cartridge manufacturer's recommended tracking weight.

Wayner