Need Advice on Subwoofer

jjv77030 · « **on:** 9 Dec 2009, 07:17 pm »

I am in need of a subwoofer for my new HT setup and I am trying to find something that will fit the system and the budget and will look a little like an end table next to my sofa.

My room is 20 x 15, front speakers are ACI pandora in-walls. Surrounds are ACI B-flats.

I had planned to get Titan XL, but ACI is no longer making them.

I would like to spend under $1000.

Any ideas?

Thanks in advance,
Jay

Nick77 · « **Reply #1 on:** 9 Dec 2009, 07:30 pm »

I know there is some controversy over sevice issues, but this product would be very tough to beat for the price. As long as its in stock should be no problem.MFW15
http://www.av123.com//index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=476&category_id=9&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=37

roscoeiii · « **Reply #2 on:** 9 Dec 2009, 07:41 pm »

Hsu subwoofers also warrant a look. There are also many folks who swear by dual subwoofers, so if you had space, you could look into 2 ~$500 subs vs. 1 ~$1000 subs. I've really liked the dual subs in my 2 channel set-up. I set my system up this way after reading parise of a 2 sub system in Jim Smith's "Get Better Sound" a great resource for audio set-up. Highly recommended.

Kevin Haskins · « **Reply #3 on:** 9 Dec 2009, 07:49 pm »

Well... you can build one and get a lot more output and get something that is exactly what you want. This particular design would spank a JL Fathom, SVS Ultra etc... It is about $500-$700 in parts (driver + amp), and the MDF is about $20/sheet. Having it custom built by a local cabinet shop is pretty easy. My cabinet builder would make one but you would be looking at $1K just for the cabinet + shipping.

TF1216 · « **Reply #4 on:** 9 Dec 2009, 08:04 pm »

Mr. Haskins,

Are you speaking to something that is on your site?

Kevin Haskins · « **Reply #5 on:** 9 Dec 2009, 09:41 pm »

Quote from: tf121682 on 9 Dec 2009, 08:04 pm

Mr. Haskins,

Are you speaking to something that is on your site?

That design I show above was for a Tempest-X2, slot port with an internal volume around 5.5-6 cubic feet, tuned around 20hz with a 500W plate amp. I think the dimensions on it are around 26" x 25" x 22.5" high. You could do the same thing with a Shiva-X2 in a smaller enclosure, probably shrinking the design by a good 30-40%. As an option for more output, you can step up the a 1000W plate amp and pick up a couple dB more output. The drivers have stroke and capability to easily handle it and the system is still amplifier limited under all most the most extreme conditions.

There is nothing on my site other than the downloadable application notes for the driver. Subs are pretty simple though.... it is a box, with a couple braces and a hole for a driver & the amp. The critical dimensions are the internal volume, and the port size/length. The rest of the dimensions you can juggle to fit your application.

I have a gaggle of people who have built this design and most of them are stunned with the results (in a good way).

Here is the model and this is pretty close to what you can expect although this was my 5.1 cubic foot design. In-room, you will get very good extension into the teens and awesome output from 20Hz on up.

poseidonsvoice · « **Reply #6 on:** 9 Dec 2009, 10:34 pm »

Kevin,

You could probably do the same design without the slot port, add 100% fill and make it a sealed unit, right? You will lose out in maximum spl and you may gain something in the transient response. Your Tempest X2 should do fine in a 5.5-6 cubic foot enclosure with 100% fill and a 500-1000 watt amp...

Anand.

Kevin Haskins · « **Reply #7 on:** 9 Dec 2009, 11:28 pm »

Quote from: poseidonsvoice on 9 Dec 2009, 10:34 pm

Kevin,

You could probably do the same design without the slot port, add 100% fill and make it a sealed unit, right? You will lose out in maximum spl and you may gain something in the transient response. Your Tempest X2 should do fine in a 5.5-6 cubic foot enclosure with 100% fill and a 500-1000 watt amp...

Anand.

Yea... in all of my driver designs we have the T/S parameters worked out so that they can be used in either ported or sealed. The tradeoff you make going sealed is that you lose all the port output. For Home Theater Applications that is a bad choice because people want to feel all the action. For 2-channel use you just don't need the same output at 20Hz. Hell... 30Hz is often good enough for enjoying a good 2-channel system. You can actually cut the enclosure size by about 1/3rd for sealed designs and get very musical results. If it is a system that is dual purpose though, you are better off keeping it ported because the HT experience is vastly improved by the extra output in the first octave. They are still musical but there are some recordings that are mastered poorly and the LF capability is actually a negative. Room measurements and EQ are important....I'd even say critical for getting good 2-channel results. A couple bands of PEQ and a measurement system can make an absolutely HUGE difference in the integration of a sub so that is something where the HT crowd is ahead of audiophiles in terms of sound quality.

tvyankee · « **Reply #8 on:** 9 Dec 2009, 11:59 pm »

hello,

this is in your budget and is one of the best.

http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/portedsentinel.html

there is a reason why they are out of stock.

srb · « **Reply #9 on:** 10 Dec 2009, 12:18 am »

If you find a subwoofer you like, but it doesn't have the "end table" look that you want, you can always have a local granite countertop fabricator make a granite top that overhangs the cabinet dimensions.

With the substantial weight of the material, it could just be set of top of the cabinet on some non-slip rubber disks, and would not move when bumped.

Depending on the size, you may be able to get one made with finished edges in the $200 range. Again, depending on the required size, a sink cutout piece may possibly be big enough, further reducing the cost.

Steve

hayden · « **Reply #10 on:** 10 Dec 2009, 12:35 am »

Quote from: Nick77 on 9 Dec 2009, 07:30 pm

I know there is some controversy over sevice issues, but this product would be very tough to beat for the price. As long as its in stock should be no problem.MFW15
http://www.av123.com//index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=476&category_id=9&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=37

Some controversy is an understatement. Kevin's product's/design's are hard to beat (and only then by ID companies such as - Hsu, SVS, TSC, Epik, eD, Aperion, etc.)

Kevin Haskins · « **Reply #11 on:** 10 Dec 2009, 01:05 am »

Quote from: hayden on 10 Dec 2009, 12:35 am

Quote from: Nick77 on 9 Dec 2009, 07:30 pm
I know there is some controversy over sevice issues, but this product would be very tough to beat for the price. As long as its in stock should be no problem.MFW15
http://www.av123.com//index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=476&category_id=9&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=37

Some controversy is an understatement. Kevin's product's/design's are hard to beat (and only then by ID companies such as - Hsu, SVS, TSC, Epik, eD, Aperion, etc.)

Thank you! I can crush anything from any of these companies and they know it but I do it by exploiting larger enclosures which just are not commercially viable and pro-sound amplifiers which have great Price/power ratios. Many of my customers are building false-walls, or using space that is built into a room. With subwoofers, if you can gain a little volume it goes a long ways. Also you have an infinite range of customization when you are building something that fits your room decor. It isn't as cheap as a black box made in China but you can undeniably get better results if you have the budget and desire.

A Shiva-X2 in a ported alignment with my standard 500W plate amp should be fairly comparable to the MFW-15. Mark does a great job with the cabinet in China/Central America for a very cheap price. In fact, I think his sub is sold either at a loss or very close to it. His problems had to do with an amplifier design. Having the best selling ID sub is great, unless you are losing money on them and have problems with a component, then you are stuck trying to cover all the problems in the field. I feel for Mark because it is a situation I wouldn't want to be in and I'll never sell product with margins that close to the bone. I'd rather spend some extra money, have some extra margin and be able to cover my butt.

poseidonsvoice · « **Reply #12 on:** 10 Dec 2009, 06:06 pm »

Quote from: Kevin Haskins on 9 Dec 2009, 11:28 pm

Quote from: poseidonsvoice on 9 Dec 2009, 10:34 pm
Kevin,

You could probably do the same design without the slot port, add 100% fill and make it a sealed unit, right? You will lose out in maximum spl and you may gain something in the transient response. Your Tempest X2 should do fine in a 5.5-6 cubic foot enclosure with 100% fill and a 500-1000 watt amp...

Anand.

Yea... in all of my driver designs we have the T/S parameters worked out so that they can be used in either ported or sealed. The tradeoff you make going sealed is that you lose all the port output. For Home Theater Applications that is a bad choice because people want to feel all the action. For 2-channel use you just don't need the same output at 20Hz. Hell... 30Hz is often good enough for enjoying a good 2-channel system. You can actually cut the enclosure size by about 1/3rd for sealed designs and get very musical results. If it is a system that is dual purpose though, you are better off keeping it ported because the HT experience is vastly improved by the extra output in the first octave. They are still musical but there are some recordings that are mastered poorly and the LF capability is actually a negative. Room measurements and EQ are important....I'd even say critical for getting good 2-channel results. A couple bands of PEQ and a measurement system can make an absolutely HUGE difference in the integration of a sub so that is something where the HT crowd is ahead of audiophiles in terms of sound quality.

Agreed. I'd rather go with your passive radiator design (Shiva X2 + passive radiator) however. I'll have my cake and eat it too. Either the O-Audio 500 watt plate amp, or the Parts Express 1000 watt amp and you are good to go. For the true nuts, then the Velodyne SC-1250 unit that pumps out 1250 watts should be fine and still within affordability.

Food for thought. At least for me

.

Anand.

budyog · « **Reply #13 on:** 10 Dec 2009, 06:14 pm »

Negotiate on this one! You will not be disappointed, trust me, I have 2!

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homesubw&1265309978&/ACI-Maestro-Subwoofer

Good luck!

Cacophonix · « **Reply #14 on:** 10 Dec 2009, 09:56 pm »

Get a couple of yamaha yst sw315 (~$185 each at jr.com)... and they should be more than enough for your room. Cheap, yet great performance.

Or you can try the rythmik audio subwoofer .. costs a bit but its a very musical (tight, fast) subwoofer. You can build their ported sub, if you want more output.

bpape · « **Reply #15 on:** 10 Dec 2009, 11:15 pm »

That used Maestro or one of Kevin's DIY designs would be killer. For a bit less, the HSU VTF3 does a surprisingly good job.

Bryan

poseidonsvoice · « **Reply #16 on:** 12 Dec 2009, 02:45 pm »

Got a big home theater? Want something to blow your mind? 90dB at 11 Hz? Here you go:

Danley DTS-10 "Super Spud" DIY kit, soon to be sold fully assembled as well.

Best,
Anand.

doug s. · « **Reply #17 on:** 13 Dec 2009, 09:23 am »

Quote from: tvyankee on 9 Dec 2009, 11:59 pm

hello,

this is in your budget and is one of the best.

http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/portedsentinel.html

there is a reason why they are out of stock.

these might be good subs. but, since they are out of stock on everything, there may be some other reason than their being good.

doug s.

doug s. · « **Reply #18 on:** 13 Dec 2009, 09:27 am »

Quote from: Cacophonix on 10 Dec 2009, 09:56 pm

Get a couple of yamaha yst sw315 (~$185 each at jr.com)... and they should be more than enough for your room. Cheap, yet great performance.

Or you can try the rythmik audio subwoofer .. costs a bit but its a very musical (tight, fast) subwoofer. You can build their ported sub, if you want more output.

yes, i would also recommend these. for $400 for a pair, shipped, you would be hard-pressed to do better. i would also recommend a pair of the now-discontinued yst-sw215's, that have about the same spec as the 315's, but use a pair of forward-firing 8" drivers; but good luck finding a matching pair. the 215's are likely still not as fast and tight as a rythmik sub, but faster than the 315's that replaced them. kinda different price-range, tho.

and, i would prefer a pair of the yammies over a single rythmik, as i much prefer the added spl, lowered distortion and ease of room integration that multiple subs provide. (may even eliminate the gap of the tightness of a single rythmik.) actually, whatever sub you choose, i would recommend two instead of one.

another thing to consider would be to get an outboard active x-over - you will get better performance out of your speakers, if they and their amps don't have to see any frequencies below 80hz or so. w/active subs like the yammies, you yust set their internal x-over at their highest point (140hz) so they are effectively eliminated from the equation.

doug s.