[richidoo]

Should a brand new LP have pops and ticks? I heard new Dave Matthews LP over the weekend on a very nice analog rig. I saw the owner peel off the plastic wrap. Between tracks the surface noise was very noticeable. This the very first playing of a newly minted major label LP.  What causes the noise? Certainly it is not on the master recording. So is it just poor quality mfg standards?  I have seen video of LP stamping process, I don't remember any mold release being used. I thought all remaining LP stampers were boutique companies making premium quality records? Maybe they are using recycled vinyl?  Or small bits of vinyl get stuck to the stamper over time? Thanks for any ideas.
Rich

[TheChairGuy]

If it hasn't been cleaned, there is gunk in the grooves that the delicate stylus is trying to ride over, Rich

As well, static electricity adhered to the surfaces working all sortsa' interaction(s) with cantilever and motor within the cartridge.

You wouldn't see mold release on a video...you see the stamping of the vinyl (or, mold) and what residue is left you want to 'release' with one cleaning fluid or another

Someone on this board is probably more informed on the subject of molds...but for our product we produce molds for the plastic parts, and stamp them out.  These only have to hold up to a visual and strength inspections. 

You're asking a similar mold for vinyl to be made in very, very high tolerance to allow for a 0.3 x 0.7 micron stylus shape (something of a typical elliptical shape) to pass thru the grooves and sound 'quiet'.  So, you need to help it along with a good cleaning regimen that includes a mold release product (a la Microsorb Premiere, LAST Power Cleaner and others)

With vinyl resurgence, comes a need for product fast and quick to market with limited amount of record pressing plants in the world left. The remaining plants are enjoying a veritable field day for business right now (until more are built) and we the consumer as a result get slightly-less-than polished end product due to demand/supply inequality.  Most of the issues are warp-related...not sure if the end product is more noisy than days gone by.

John

[TheChairGuy]

Stuff related to your question in this topic elsewhere, Rich: http://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=19843&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Ciao, John

[BobM]

New virgin vinyl definitely needs a cleaning before it is played. The before vs after difference is very noticeable.

Bob

[richidoo]

Thanks, interesting stuff.  The record was also slighly warped, visible when standing 12 feet away. But the music sounded very good Amazing the frequency range, dynamics. I wish my TT did that....

[Wayner]

I just recently bought 6 new albums and I will say that all of them were loaded with static. I believe this may contribute to some of the noise problem. The other contributor may be the turntable it self. Perhaps it wasn't set up properly? With VTA setting the tail up in the air can result in higher surface noise as the rake angle is not correct and the stylus is skimming more than normal. Perhaps an incorrect VTF may slightly contribute to this as well.

As far as the link to the vinylengine and their discussion of the topic, I ,may beg to differ about the quality of pressings of today vs yesterday. I spent plenty of money on gas bringing back warped records, scratched records, records stamped off concentric center (the record cam, if you will) and all kinds of other weird abnormalties. Most of the records that I have bought recently have gotten a B or B+ in my opinion. Although I have one with the side one label on both sides (collectors item maybe?), but all have been flat and scratch free.

It is madning to drop the cue lever on a new record for the first time and hear popcorn. That is the sound of over-heated vinyl press that has also pressed micro-scopic bubbles into the vinyl. Those albums are screwed forever.

As far as a mold release agent, I think all they do is clean the stamping plates, the grooves have 45 degree draft angle (90 total) so it shouldn't be a problem.

I would guess the 2 biggest problems stamping a record is alignment of top and bottom and heater temperature. I'm sure cycle time is a big part of it too. That is where the warped records of old came from. They had to run LPs thru their presses damn quick and perhaps things kind of went to hell then.

Wayner

[*Scotty*]

You may also be listening to "noisy" vinyl. Vinyl compounds used for records vary in how much noise they produce when a stylus traces them. If there is any recycled vinyl in the mix the surface noise will rise dramatically. There is also the problem of non-fill voids were the vinyl did not flow completely into the entire groove,micro-voids give you pops and ticks.
Scotty

[Wayner]

Oh yea, I dropped my Discwasher brush on my brand new David Gilmore LP "On an Island" and actually broke the record. Now I can only play the last 3 songs of side B, side A where the brush fell, is pretty much destroyed. This is the second accident I've had this summer, the other was dropping my mint Yes 90125 on the garage floor concrete. Now there is some surface noise. What pisses me off is that there was no beer involved, just butter fingers. Now we have new LP policy in the garage (and a carpet on the floor in front of the table, and as far as the discwasher accident, what can I say? Replacement LP will be here tomorrow along with the boxed Pink Floyd set Echos.

This is just a reminder of how fragile some of these vinylphool treasures we all love are. Within micro seconds,  the smile is turned into a frown. I almost cried. Now a the ultimate question. Why is it that this shit always happens to the favorite LPs? It could have been a hundred different ones and I probably wouldn't have cared. sad

Wayner

[Photon46]

I feel your pain Wayner.  It always happens to the one's you love the most. My favorite dumbass move is getting butter fingers when cleaning records on the NittyGritty and I let the vinyl hit the side of the case when I lose my grip. 
My last victim was Cat Power's "The Greatest," one of my favorites. Now I have a couple of tracks with an annoying tic..tic..tic...

[ecramer]

I will have to join the club I dropped a brand new 180 gram Tom Scott 3 and put a big scratch right across the a side never even got it on the player 

ED

I feel your pain Wayner.  It always happens to the one's you love the most. My favorite dumbass move is getting butter fingers when cleaning records on the NittyGritty and I let the vinyl hit the side of the case when I loose my grip. 
My last victim was Cat Power's "The Greatest," one of my favorites. Now I have a couple of tracks with an annoying tic..tic..tic...

[whubbard]

I'll join in. Only one accident to my name: a nice scratch across Bridge over Troubled Water on my 200g Simon & Garfunkel record. My favorite Simon & Garfunkel song. 
I did also bounce my stylus on my Killers record, but somehow I didn't do any damaged. I looked & listened over and over again but all seemed well.

-West

[lcrim]

One of the great urban legends survives.  Mold release agent doesn't exist and never did.  We had a thread on this a few years back and it got quite heated.  Nothing is sprayed on the blanks before stamping because the label is bonded by the pressing as well.  The cleanest a record ever will be is directly after stamping.  If there is any substance in the vinyl compound to aid in release, the label would not adhere and why would it migrate to the surface? 
Record plants used to run 24X7 and the heat of the vinyl was held constant.  Short runs common today, means reheating the vinyl all the time which creates voids and irregular consistency.  The quality of much new vinyl can be excellent but thats not the rule.

[kenreau]

One of the great urban legends survives.  Mold release agent doesn't exist and never did.  We had a thread on this a few years back and it got quite heated.  Nothing is sprayed on the blanks before stamping because the label is bonded by the pressing as well.  The cleanest a record ever will be is directly after stamping.  If there is any substance in the vinyl compound to aid in release, the label would not adhere and why would it migrate to the surface? 
Record plants used to run 24X7 and the heat of the vinyl was held constant.  Short runs common today, means reheating the vinyl all the time which creates voids and irregular consistency.  The quality of much new vinyl can be excellent but thats not the rule.

This reminds me, I recently watched Michael Fremers "Its A Vinyl World" DVD (now at netflix!) and there were two video tours through record pressing plants.  One in Germany and RTI (SoCal).  There was a detailed documentary of the entire path of record production from vinyl pellets to the stampers to labeling and QC check before going in the jackets.  It reminded me of a little like a bakery process, making rolls or cookies. 

There was no apparent mold release agents sprayed or applied between pressing of the black vinyl blobs.  One observation that struct me was how old, industrial and utilitarian the pressing plants are.  It was certainly not even close to a clean room or even basic food prep room in terms of cleanliness.  I can imagine there are all kinds of dust and contaminents floating around in those rooms.  Large doors are open to the outside (due to poor HVAC and ventilation) and no apparent filtration going on.  I was really expecting more hi-tech processes, semi-clean room protocols (uniforms, hair nets, anti rooms) taking place.  I've seen a lot of auto repair mechanic shops that were many times cleaner and more professional looking.

It would be interesting to compare these two pressing plants to how the Japanese facilities are operated.

Kenreau

[Wayner]

It's pretty much an old world process that has proven it self for many, many years. You should see how they make aluminum extrusions or cast aluminum or steel parts, you'd think it was barbaric. I'm sure the Japanese where gowns and hats and all the fluff, tho I doubt it's necessary. They will tell you it is, I'm sure.

I've been spinning LPs for about 2 hours now and I just am always amazed at the "old world" technology and how it has trounced the CD format, IMHO.
While the CD is small and can sound quite nice, especially the bass, it can't bring out the layers of detail that continuous sinewaves of analog info can. I find that I'm maybe starting not to like digital TV, too. Digital pixilation, anyone?

Wayner

[twitch54]

What pisses me off is that there was no beer involved, just butter fingers.

is it fair to assume that several beers were 'involved' afterwards though ?  ! 

[low.pfile]

You may also be listening to "noisy" vinyl. Vinyl compounds used for records vary in how much noise they produce when a stylus traces them. If there is any recycled vinyl in the mix the surface noise will rise dramatically. There is also the problem of non-fill voids were the vinyl did not flow completely into the entire groove,micro-voids give you pops and ticks.
Scotty

Great Thread!
As a vinyl newbie, it's hard to know "how" it should sound. But I have also purchased new released album and found it a bit noisy-while other new (contemporary) releases are dead silent. So hearing others comments on the noise level is reassuring-on one hand, while on the other, makes it clear that vinyl is not a foolproof medium.

It would be great to learn more about the technical aspects of the plastics used today.

And re Wayers drops: Recently, Right after a cleaning sesion, I lightly scratched an album when I simply flipped another album between my finger tips to view the other side. My flip was not out of the clearance of the other album resting on a drying towel, so the edge scraped the never played album. Doh!

[Wayner]

I feel your pain guys! My new replacement David Gilmore just came in the door and we are listening to it right now. Very highly recommended for audiophile sound quality. I also got the Pink Floyd "Echoes" greatest hits box set (4 LPs) and will try to play a few tonight. Yes, there will also be a few beers, but will take it easy.

Wayner

[Wayner]

Also, the Thomas Dolby - Astronauts and Heretics album came from England today, very minty. Thanks Sharon.

Wayner