[spectralman]

Finally, I got to listen to a pair of RM40's today at Cinema and Sound in Naperville, IL.  First off, let me thank Steve, the dealer there, for being a patient and gracious host.  Steve is a really decent guy to deal with.  

The RM40's I heard today were actually Steve's personal pair.  They had the TRT upgrade and std. spiral ribbon tweeters.  Steve is a home theater designer and installer, and had his 40's in his extremely nice basement home theater room.  He also had 1 new larger sub and surround speakers (626's?). that could be switched in and out of the system.  Preamp/processor was a B&K Ref 50, power amp was a B&K 200.7, CDP was unknown Sony model.  Cables: unknown.

Let me first digress to state that I was comparing what I heard today to my old system, all Spectral/MIT with custom made Focal driver speakers similar to JM Labs Utopias.  

I first listened to some classical piano, Beethoven piano sonatas played by Artur Rubenstein (RCA Gold Seal), followed by Elgar's Intro and Allegro for Strings (Virgin Classics), then Tam O' Shanter by Malcolm Arnold (Reference Recording).  The 40's are extremely fast and detailed in the midrange.  That's saying something remebering that this is in relation to my old Spectral gear, and the fact that I was listening to "only" B&K electronics today.  The 40's imaged like cray and had a great soundstage.  Depth was quite good.  My gripe, and I discussed this with Steve, was that the violin (but to a much lesser degree, the cello) sounded thin.  It just didn't have the body and lushness I was used to.  This was also evident with the piano.  There didn't seem to be the air around the attacks that I remembered, either.  Brass and woodwinds did not seem to suffer from this thinness.  As I listen to approximately 50% classical music, I was not real happy about the sound of the violin and piano.

Next up was some electronic stuff, the 1st and 2nd cuts from the Wild Things soundtrack, 2 cuts from James Newton Howard and Friends (Sheffield), a Michael Ruff cut: Wishing Well and Dock of the Bay with Lincoln Mayorga from the Sheffield "My Disc."  At this point, just for kicks, I had Steve add in the WMPS larger sub, crossed over at 40HZ, powered by a BIG Cinepro amp.  The Wild Things cuts have some great intro vocals, excellent sax and drum licks.  The James Newton Howard cuts had excellent drum and bass lines, while the My Disc cuts had a walking bass line and really good guitar work, respectively.

As an aside, this was the first time I heard a good sub in a 2-channel system.  It also seemed to blend very well.  What floored me was the way the entire tonal character of the RM40's changed when the sub was switched into the system.  Even when there was no apparent output from the sub, the 40's sounded way more open, relaxed, and FULL from top to bottom.  This was not at all a subtle difference.  In fact, r/t the thinness I previously described, I would not be happy with the RM40's w/o the sub added in.  Drum kicks were quicker and had more impact, reeds jumped out, vocals imaged like crazy and were more dynamic.  Needless to say, there was no comparison in the bass.  Even the mid and upper bass were much fuller.  (OK, I confess, I'm a bass junkie.)

(FYI, the rest of the listening session was conducted using the sub.)

Rebecca Pidgeon's "The Raven" on CACD was very, very nice.  Her voice just leapt out of the speakers.  Placement of instruments was wonderful, front and back, as well as laterally.

Then camme the BASS.  MC 900 Ft. Jesus, the Boston Bass Disc, Ode to Ludwig on Telarc (Don Dorsey synthesizer stuff), and Erich Kunzel's The Very Best of...  Let's just say the bass was phenomenal in slam, definition, weight, and depth.  On the Kunzel CD, the synth opening of Also Sprach Zarathustra into Goldsmith's Star Wars them was mightily impressive.  The bass drums in the Star Wars opening actually sucked the life out of the Cinepro bass amp (approx. 1000W into each active driver).  Ode to Ludwig was its usual scary self with some of the biggest hits I have ever heard recorded.  However, my old system still had a bit more weight in the mid and upper bass, just not the depth.  (My old speakers were solid to 40Hz and 3db down at 37Hz).  

Steve then put on an Alison Krauss SACD (sorry, can't remeber which one) that was really special.  The voice again just jumped out of the RM40's, imaged very well, was clear as a bell, and had excellent weight.  The accompanying guitar work could be describely in nearly identical terms.

Last, I listened to Bruno Walter's recording of Beethoven's 6th Symphony on SACD.  This was the 1st SACD I heard a number of years ago (using my friend's SCD-1, and on my old system).  This recording sold me on the SACD format.  The strings are especially lush yet defined spatially.  In all, it is one of my favorite CD's period.  However, even in SACD and with the sub in the system, the violin again sounded a bit thin.  Instrument placement was first-rate, brass and woodwinds sounded very good tonally, with appropriate body.

I need input here (please, please, please...).  Maybe I went into this listening session thinking the RM40's were going to be my speaker nirvana.  I was disappointed in the sound of piano and violin as heard in Steve's system.  When discussing this, Steve stated another customer voiced a similar concern.  To all RM40 owners, have you heard this on your systems?  To Tyson, I will shortly be getting my AVA T7R (updated) and new FetValve 550EXR back.  Will these electronics help with the above problem?  Or, would the addition of the FST and lower crossover point help to remedy the situation?  Lastly, has anyone out there heard what I did with the addition of the VMPS sub to the RM40's, i.e., the tremendous improvement (to me anyway) in the tonal character, openness, and just about everything else?

Your comments would be greatly appreciated, as I was just about set to plunk the money down for the RM40's.  Now, I'm not quite so sure.

One thing is just about for sure, though,  I'm getting a VMPS new larger sub asap!!!

Thanks.  And sorry for being so long-winded.

Bill

[audiochef]

Good detailed review Spectralman,

      no I don't experience the same weeknesses you've described , especially on piano which I consider  a streghth in my system.

 Maybe it's the room or electronics of Steves.

 My room in comparison is smallish and electronics is real world lower priced gear ,just tweaked to hell.

   The Rm40s are very adjustable in fine tuning terms . If you have the patience , I think you'll be able to overcome the shortcomings mentioned.

[lkosova]

Bill,

First thing is that Steve's name is Scott. It sounds like he has the same electronics he had a year ago . the cables I think are MIT.

I have heard his setup and I agree that in his room, as posted before, the larger sub changes the tonal personality of the RM-40's in his room. His room is approx. 25 ft long by 14.5 wide and I think 8 ft high.

I think that the RM-40's need more tweaking in this room. Guitar was great but I agree that piano lacked but drums,cymbals were great.

Holly Cole was exceptional but there was a boominess to the bass line in songs like Train Song etc.

At first the sonud was boxy and on my second visit sounded better.

This room was a Dennis Erksine design and my room is similar but not done yet....but close. I am changing some things to decrease what I don't like in this room.

I think that better electronics might give you what you are looking for.

Larry

[spectralman]

Good grief, I knew I was bad with names.  Thanks, Larry.  And a very big sorry to Scott.

[Andrikos]

Not too late to edit your post!    

[lkosova]

But then I would have to edit mine!!!

Larry

[Sedona Sky Sound]

My vote is that the weak link is the electronics. The B&K Ref 50 is very nice for Home Theater but just can't compete with a good stereo pre-amp for 2-channel listening. I have not heard the B&K200.7 amp with the RM40s but I wonder if it has enough current to adequately power the bass on the RM40s. I would assume that since it is 200Wx7 that is should but haven't been able to find the specs on the power supply (considering it is 7 channel but weighs only slightly more than a single Ampzilla, I am guessing it is not that big).

I do not think I have heard anyone describe my RM40s as thin. They have made other comments (too bright, not bright enough, too little bass, etc.) but I am usually able to correct this by tweaking the pot a little to their preference or having them move their listening position a foot or so back. The best way I can describe the sound of a piano is that the RM40 can adequately reproduce a Baby Grand but not a Concert Grand piano. If you move up to the RM/X, then you get the full impact of a Concert Grand. The timber and speed seem to be the same on both the RM40 and RM/X but the RM/X just has a lot more force/weight behind it.    

Julian
www.sedonaskysound.com

[rkapadia@ROOP]

spectralman,

I've been to Scott's over a year ago to listen to his RM40's.  While I think the RM40's do a lot of things right in Scott's room, I will also say I've heard the RM40's sound better more than once versus my experiences at Scott's place.  This is no disrespect to Scott, as he clearly has another design objective than only two channel audio, and restrictions in the home theatre room.

For those reading that haven't seen Scott's room, it's a beautiful home theatre room with custom fabric, seating, and a screen in the front.  The effect is impressive, but leaves no flexibility regarding where to place the RM-40's in the room.

I just wanted to point out the RM40 has the ability to have more weight in the lower midbass versus what you may have heard in your past audition - in fact I think the strength of VMPS speakers is to have ribbon transparency with the dynamics and impact of cone speakers.

Regards,

[Q]

I think I was the "Other" customer that Scott was referring to.  Your comments reflect exactly what I was missing when I auditioned the RM40s...UPPER BASS warmth and impact.  This is why Ive been toying with adding subs to compliment the system into the upper bass region.  
NO, I have not heard a properly setup 2 channel system...but then again, mine wont be a dedicated 2 channel setup either.  The fact that the RM40s were shoved into the front corners in Scott's setup did nothing to help matters, Im sure.  While I enjoyed the multichannel SACD presentations he provided, I found it MUCH more pleasing to sit equidistant (as in forming the equilateral triangle) and ear level with the spirals and just listen to good 2 channel.  

I will tell you that if I had heard what I was searching for in EITHER of my auditions of the RM40, I would have a pair in my house right now...IM STILL WAITING for someone to show me a GREAT setup.  I'm not giving up, because what I heard in the level of resolution and coherence in the mids is magic.  HELP!
Q

[Redbone]

A lot of variables can affect the bass and mid bass.  The biggest hit there that I have found is the amp and wires.  You really need a powerful amp to light up the 40s, and make sure that cables and connections are clean.  The next issue is the mortite tuning.  I have very little experience there.  Lastly, speaker placement, height and alignment have a big effect on the overal tonal balance.  Don't forget the room acoustics.  A carpeted floor will have an affect.

The thinness of the violin can be an effect of the spiral tweeter vs. the FST, IMO.  The FST is a really POWERFUL driver.  If the speakers are placed level on the floor, try varying your listening height (squatting) to locate the sweet spot for the tweeter.  If you cannot hear a HUGE difference when changing height, go for an FST upgrade.

Finally, these are not "plug and play" speakers.  All of the above variables react together to give you differences in the sound, and not always in ways that you expect.  There is a science and an art to setting up these speakers.  I am no expert, but I am learning.  If all you have done is hooked them up to your old system, and moved them around a bit, scraped a little mortite out of the passive woofer, I will gaurantee you that you are not getting the best sound out them.

[warnerwh]

Redbone hit the nail on the head. Getting these speakers balanced properly in a room takes time even if you are experienced with VMPS speakers.  They can go from sounding awful to amazing with a little adjustment. This is NOT an exaggeration.

[Tyson]

The 40's are so transperent that they will merely pass along what they are being fed.  Also, many people tune them too brightly in my opinion (and for the music I listen to, mostly classical).  In my experience, the pots on the back should be turned up no higher than the 12 o'clock position for both the mids and the highs.  In fact the mids work better in my setup at around 11 o'clock.  Ironically, the pot for the tweeter has less effect on brightness than the mid pot.

And, I hate to slam gear, but the B&K really, really is not up to the same level as the 40's.  To me it has a bit of a mechanical sound (ie, non-organic) compared to good gear.  Gear that will sound good with the 40's include Van Alstine, Odyssey (mono extremes), Parasound JC-1's, Spectron Musician II (but it really needs tubes in the pre, IMO), and of course cabling is important as well.  I can recommend Boulder Nitro and M80 and Zu Wax as good choices.

Remeber that warmth is mostly affected by how the mids are tuned in comparison to the woofers.  Play around with the putty on the PR and the mid panel pot to get it just where you want it.  Don't be afraid to experiment with extreme tunings, it will give you an idea of the range of sounds possible you can extract from these speakers.

Also, if you do decided on the Van Alstine gear, get it with the Amperex tubes instead of the Electroharmonix (you can request Frank to ship them with either).  But if really want a warmer more tubey sound, check out some Brimar or Mullard tubes.  I personally like Siemens tubes as well.

[SWG255]

My RM40s are absolutely spectacular with piano. They are also excellent with strings, but for both, the recording becomes the major variable. I had a lengthy "classical" listening session with an old friend last night, and we played 5 or 6 different discs from different artists and venues. The piano sound went from very, very warm to almost cold, depending on the recording. The same for the violin. If the recording has the "wood" sound of the violin, the RM40s will play it back for you.

I'm using the Carver Pro ZR 1600 amplifier, Conrad Johnson Motif MC-8 preamp, and Audience Conductor speaker cable. I also have a Sony SCD-1, and while it isn't up to current standards, I still enjoy music coming from it in my system.