[Quiet Earth]

Thanks again John for your insightful replies  . The whole synergy thing with the cartridge/arm is still over my head. You'd think I would have it all figured out by now . . . . thirty-something years of spinning these black mystery discs. 
 


(FWIW, The nott. space arm is a unipivot design, but it has a "proprietary damping material" which I do not think is considered to be "fluid".)

Will look into the ADC . . . . . 

[TomSV650]

I don't know the Nottingham...if it's fluid damped, you have half-a-leg up on getting the Grado to sound wonderful 

If it doesn't, try the ADC for grins and giggles and just enjoy the hell outta' it

Resistive loading does work....but, it really is a fancy tone control in the end. It has not turned any cartridge from a sows ear into a silk purse...but, can improve both MM and MC's when you play around with it.

The inductance of most HOMC's is usually around 0.2-0.4 mH I think (by contrast, the hi output Grado's are 45mH and the pricey Ortofon 2M series is a fully senseless 600mH). You guarantee yourselves a less-than-transparent treble with high inductance...even if everything is stellar about the cartridge.

$99 for the basic Ortofon might be okay...but $600 for the top-of-line 2M version with very high inductance figures is truly senseless and would rate as vastly overpriced on my scale.  But, many cartridge makers spray a little foofie dust about and make us pay, pay, and pay some more 

I've found that 1K loading is far too low (it sounds [electrically] overdamped at 1K) and found more like 2-4K to be right.

Why do you make stupid statements when you haven't even tried one?  The Ortofon Black has gotten rave reviews from both individual owners and the press.   

[TheChairGuy]

Tom,

I'd advise you to not call whoever's statement as stupid here on the Vinyl Circle (it's merely incidental that it was mine, really) and that I clearly stated 'would rate as vastly overpriced on my scale' (italics added for effect).

You should probably learn that high inductance causes early roll-off of high frequency outputs of any cartridge....negating much of the (possibly only theoretical) advantage in treble that vinyl has over CD/Redbook in the process.  Much of the betterment perceived by many for moving coils is likely due to their inherently low inductance values relative to MM/MI's.

I won't buy a $600 cartridge with 600mh inductance. 

Inductance of 600mh guarantees significant falloff below 19khz of Redbook...and, in my opinion, not a good platform to begin enjoying vinyl.

But, that's my opinion as expressed....you can disagree with it and give your own reasons....but you MAY NOT call anyone stupid for expressing theirs. Please make your third Audio Circle post a more agreeable one.

John
Facilitator / Vinyl Circle

[GBB]

You should probably learn that high inductance causes early roll-off of high frequency outputs of any cartridge....

Inductance of 600mh guarantees significant falloff below 19khz of Redbook...and, in my opinion, not a good platform to begin enjoying vinyl.

John,
I certainly won't defend the tone in Tom's message.

But I am also a bit mystified at the strong stance you're taking against the Ortofon 2M in the absence of any hands on experience.  Your comments about the deleterious effect of high inductance seem to be a bit too definitive.  You are right that higher inductance can cause earlier high frequency roll off but it is possible to tweak other parameters to flatten out the design.  I don't know exactly what Ortofon does to deal with the high inductance but they do have many years of experience designing cartridges and there is no reason to believe that they don't know what they are doing or to doubt their specs.  Their website quotes a frequency response of 20-31khz (+- 3db) and 20-20khz (+2db - 0db) which doesn't jibe with your insistence that these cartridges must be rolled off due to the high inductance.  There are many reports on the web from very satisfied users of the 2M, so I can only conclude that your prejudgement of the cartridge is a bit misguided. 

All the best.
---Gary

[TheChairGuy]

Hey Gary,

For a 630mh inductance cartridge I might pay $300 tops for it as it's naturally hobbled by high-inductance (no matter what you do mechanically, the electrical laws can't be bent).  Actually, I think the lower 2M series cartridges are 700mh.....further hobbling them.

http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html

The problem is further compounded by external phono stages (which most have now today) because they add additional capacitance beyond the turntable leads. The resonant point is well below 20khz at 630mh inductance and 125pf capacitance.

Note that Ortofon does not specify the capacitance level used with the cartridge in deriving their specs....making their specs rather like marketing drivel than fact. Specs matter only if used in relevant real world conditions, not laboratory optimized.

What sonics and treble is there might be sweet indeed, but if you're paying large money (I consider $600 for the top-of-the-line 2M to be) for a MM, it ought to have more to it (or less of it as it were).  It's pretty clear that Ortofon has elevated the price of all of their cartridges in the past couple years to fend off pricing discounts and increase their margins (because they can).

For $300 and less, you can choose from among several Audio Technica's, Grado's and Goldrings with less or equivalent inductance and moving and tip mass....so, I would never choose the Ortofon 2M series.

But, that's just me...enjoy whatever makes you happy.  But, no one should be called 'stupid' for expressing their opinions at Vinyl Circle (I know you agree on that one )

btw, a real cartridge collector/nut/friend in Puerto Rico adores his Ortofon 2M.  So, I'm happy for anyone that is - but unless I get one for almost free, I won't be paying money for it (and I have no beef with Ortofon...long may they live )

John

[TomSV650]

Nope. Theories mean nothing to me in audio. My Ortofon Black has better highs and a overall better sound than my supposedly better Sumiko Blackbird.  Go figure. 

[Zero One]

Just a little input here on the Sumiko blue point, I have never owned or heard one, but I know from experience with many other carts that the resistance and capacitance and inter connect length and type can and do have a huge effect on the presentation, the problem being in my mind:

Most people have no access to adjusting the cap and res via their phono amps.
Cables which are too long and too high in cap.
The usually stated 47K resistance is only a very rough starting point.

I also feel there is a lot of synergy between carts and the systems they live in.

In the end what one person may find horrible in their system may sing like a princess in another.  I have found I can gain more from careful tweaking and matching than general cart changes, in fact I will go so far as to say any reasonable cart can be made to sound pretty good if the whole set up is addressed holistically. OH and its cheaper too, got to say I am with the Chair Guy on this there are a lot of over priced carts out there.

The ADC is good tip, I must check that out.

Personally I would rather have a high detail cart that can be fine tuned and tamed than a dead cart that smoothes over the details but sounds warm.  Just my take but I know others feel very differently.

[ricmon]

Personally I would rather have a high detail cart that can be fine tuned and tamed than a dead cart that smoothes over the details but sounds warm.  Just my take but I know others feel very differently.

That's why I had my Blackbird breathed on by Peter at Soundsmith.  When I got it back reparied from a run in with an intoxicated finger it was totally transformed. 

[GETRDUN]

Hello again to everyone! I will be getting the Sumiko Blue point special cartridge along with the Sumiko Project tube box SE II phono pre-amp hopefully by the end of this week, if not, by next week. I'll post again to let you all know what I think after it's all hooked up and I get a few hours of some listening. Thanks again to everyone for your comments and suggestions!