[Christof]

During my renovation I had my electrician install three separate isolated ground recepts, each on their own 20A breaker.  The 3 breakers are located on one side of my service box (possible mistake) and all my appliances are located on the other. 

First question: Because there are 3 separate circuits for the audio system is there a certain way I should have components grouped?  For example, both amps (I biamp) on one circuit?  Each amp on it's own circuit?

Second question:  Should I stagger my circuit breakers to a "every other one" layout in my service panel so they all grab onto the same bus bar?  They are currently stacked consecutively so the top and bottom grab the same bar but the middle one grabs the other bus bar.  Does this make any sense?  I have a new GE box.

Thanks

[Christopher Witmer]

I'm not sure what you are doing, but I'm inclined to think that I would have had a single beefier line installed rather than three separate lines, if the equipment is to be used together. (For example, going to 240V is one way of getting twice the power over the same wire without increasing the amperage involved; a lot of equipment is internally switchable to the higher voltage, or you can insert a drop-down isolation transformer for equipment that requires 120V.) However, even though I might have approached it differently, it sounds to me like what you have created is a star ground situation: three separate lines all ultimately connecting to the same point (i.e., the service box). Therefore, I don't think you are going to be bothered by ground loops or other line noise problems. If you do get a ground loop problem, going to 240V and putting everything on one line may solve it. (You will be able to get by with 240V/20A=120V/40A, won't you? If that's not enough, I'm gonna report you to Al Gore . . .  )

-- Chris

[jb]

First question: Because there are 3 separate circuits for the audio system is there a certain way I should have components grouped?  For example, both amps (I biamp) on one circuit?  Each amp on it's own circuit?

Jeez, do you really expect anyone here to tell which component grouping will sound best to you with your system? Here’s an idea, why don’t you try different combinations and decide which you prefer. It’s really not that hard, is it?

Second question:  Should I stagger my circuit breakers to a "every other one" layout in my service panel so they all grab onto the same bus bar?  They are currently stacked consecutively so the top and bottom grab the same bar but the middle one grabs the other bus bar.  Does this make any sense?  I have a new GE box.

The conventional audiophile wisdom is to have all audio components on the same bus bar. (If you are competent to change breaker positions on your own, that is something you can try for yourself.) On the other hand, the conventional non-audiophile wisdom is to arrange all of the loads in the breaker box such that the average current draw on each leg is equal, or nearly so. That minimizes the current on the ground circuit. Perhaps that is why many are now advocating feeding audio systems with 240v --- equal current draw on each leg and no ground current.

[ctviggen]

I would first try everything out before changing anything.  If he really did install isolated grounds, then the choices you're trying to make shouldn't make much difference. 

[Christof]

jb, You seem a little    Relax, life is good.

Jeez, do you really expect anyone here to tell which component grouping will sound best to you with  your system?

 
I expect that there are many people here with much more experience with electricity than I.  There are 3 separate circuits with 6 components which means quite a bit of fiddling to unplug and move everything about in order to exhaust all the possible combination's, which is a hell of a lot more work than simply asking if there is a general rule of thumb regarding grouping components one way or another. 

you have created is a star ground situation: three separate lines all ultimately connecting to the same point (i.e., the service box). Therefore, I don't think you are going to be bothered by ground loops or other line noise problems.

Exactly what I was hoping to hear.  Thanks, Whitmer.

[jb]

I expect that there are many people here with much more experience with electricity than I.  There are 3 separate circuits with 6 components which means quite a bit of fiddling to unplug and move everything about in order to exhaust all the possible combination's, which is a hell of a lot more work than simply asking if there is a general rule of thumb regarding grouping components one way or another.

It's not about electricity or rules of thumb: It's about audio and what sounds best to you. If there was a universal consensus as to what constituted the best sound there would be no need for this forum because everyone would have identical B*se audio systems. After all, the majority of respondents in a national poll would identify B*se as the best there is.

If you were concerned about electricity, why didn’t you seek expert advice before you had three 120v circuits installed? You must have had a reason for choosing three circuits, not one, two, four, or more, and you must have had some idea how they would be used.

The idea that your three AC circuits somehow constitute a star ground is preposterous. The signal grounds of your components are all tied together via the daisy chain of interconnects between them.

The term isolated ground, as it relates to AC power distribution, has a specific meaning. To most audiophiles it means something completely different. I wonder what you think it means.

Finally, I thought this circle supposed to be about how audio systems work based on real world science and not audiophile myths, fantasy, and voodoo?

[Christof]

If you were concerned about electricity, why didn’t you seek expert advice before you had three 120v circuits installed? You must have had a reason for choosing three circuits, not one, two, four, or more, and you must have had some idea how they would be used.

I did here.  Your post clearly shows me that you love a pissing match, I'm not into it.

[MaxCast]

A post about isolated grounds:
 

Hi,

A "branch circuit" is just a term to describe a new run from the breaker box with one, or more, receptacles connected to it.  Isolated ground receptacle branch circuits generally (though not always) use metal clad Romex.

The Leviton you posted a pic of is an isolated ground receptacle.  Lots of people use them on non-isolated ground branch circuits---but I don't/won't recommend them for that use.  Pretty much anything that starts with an "IG" will be "isolated ground".  IG receptacles will also be orange or red most of the time--though certainly not all of the time, I've seen plenty of other colors.  They will, however, always be identified by the red triangle on their face.

For a much better explanation than I can give about isolated ground circuits, click below:

http://www.iaei.org/subscriber/magazine/06_b/johnston.html
http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_grounding_vs_bonding_9/index.html

I have more references for you if this doesn't clear up the mystery.

Peace,

Lee

from this thread
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=56324.msg492925#msg492925

hope this helps

[jb]

I did here.  Your post clearly shows me that you love a pissing match, I'm not into it.

First, I didn't see that two-year old thread.
Second, I asked why you didn't seek expert advice. What you got was the usual audiophile dogma.
Third, the advice you received in that thread was far from consistent. So, how did you decide that three 120v lines was the best choice?

I don't like pissing matches any more than you do. I like technical decisions based on real knowledge; not audiophile mumbo-jumbo.

Starting from scratch, as you did, you had a golden opportunity to have everything done right. Had you taken full advantage, there is no reason dimmers or anything else would have interfered with your audio system. Most, if not all, of the so-called audiophile expertise is, at best, anecdotal advice based on observed system interactions in a non-ideal environment...at worse, regurgitated, third-hand miss-information. Few audiophiles have the chance to have their electrical system designed and installed to meet the needs of a good audio system and have no idea what’s possible.

You obviously don’t want technically accurate advice: You want advice from others who know as little about the subject as you do so you can feel good about the decisions you made.

[Christof]

You obviously don’t want technically accurate advice: You want advice from others who know as little about the subject as you do so you can feel good about the decisions you made.

JB you have fire inside.

[geezer]

If you were concerned about electricity, why didn’t you seek expert advice before you had three 120v circuits installed? You must have had a reason for choosing three circuits, not one, two, four, or more, and you must have had some idea how they would be used.

I did here.  Your post clearly shows me that you love a pissing match, I'm not into it.

Christof: There are some who will never get it. You just have to learn to ignore it.

[MaxCast]

I did here.  Your post clearly shows me that you love a pissing match, I'm not into it.

First, I didn't see that two-year old thread.
Second, I asked why you didn't seek expert advice. What you got was the usual audiophile dogma.
Third, the advice you received in that thread was far from consistent. So, how did you decide that three 120v lines was the best choice?

I don't like pissing matches any more than you do. I like technical decisions based on real knowledge; not audiophile mumbo-jumbo.

Starting from scratch, as you did, you had a golden opportunity to have everything done right. Had you taken full advantage, there is no reason dimmers or anything else would have interfered with your audio system. Most, if not all, of the so-called audiophile expertise is, at best, anecdotal advice based on observed system interactions in a non-ideal environment...at worse, regurgitated, third-hand miss-information. Few audiophiles have the chance to have their electrical system designed and installed to meet the needs of a good audio system and have no idea what’s possible.

You obviously don’t want technically accurate advice: You want advice from others who know as little about the subject as you do so you can feel good about the decisions you made.

jb, why don't you stop the mumbo jumbo and tell us how and why you would have done it.  Jumping in here and ragging isn't much help to anyone.  If you have something constructive to say, say it otherwise stop the ridicule.

[Christopher Witmer]

Everything we always wanted to know and more:
http://ecmweb.com/grounding/index1.html

[Occam]

I've never understood the rational behind multiple dedicated circuits for powering single system. A single dedicated circuit, if feasible, offers (to whatever extent)  isolation from external mains noise as well as minimal ground loop impedance between components. Multiple (dedicated or not) circuits guarantee an increased component to component ground impedance, 'star ground' or not. The fact that there are no standards in consumer audio regarding the connection of signal ground(s) to mains safety grounds, multiple mains circuits exacerbate issues of ground loops and noise.
Given the uncontrolled manner with which I've evaluated changes made in mains feeds, I couldn't dispute an argument that the improvements we hear could simply be the fact that we now have tight, uncorroded connections, rather that any isolation betwixt and between. If you need to provide isolation from mains borne noise, either extant of component generated, that is the job of your power supplies and optionally, power conditioners, as needed.
Then again, there might be systems that need more current delivery that can be provide by a properly implemented 20amp circuit. I've not personally seen or heard a home based one that would, but no doubt, they're around with big ass Krells and suchlike.

FWIW,
Paul

[JoshK]

I wasn't going to say anything, but I am of the mind similar to Paul.  The only way I would use multpile services is to break up the A/V (projector/TV, cable box, dvd player) from the audio system in a shared system but then one needs to be very careful in addressing ground loops between the two systems.   

I can't possibly conceive of a stereo audio system that would really need more than 20 amps of service.