Hi-Rez Request for Van Alstine DAC

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strat95

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Hi-Rez Request for Van Alstine DAC
« on: 12 May 2008, 03:34 am »
I had the opportunity to hear the new AVA differential systems/SALK Speakers at AK fest and have to say that they were absolutely the best sounding systems at the show.

I noticed that digital files were being played via a Squeezebox in both of the AVA rooms (the Squeezebox can handle files up to a resolution of 24/48).  I have also noticed lately that many online sites are cropping up where you can purchase digital music files of higher resolution.  Here is a list of some sites:

www.musicgiants.com
www.itrax.com
www.highdeftapetransfers.com
www.linnrecords.com
www.dgmlive.com
www.hdtracks.com
www2.deutschegrammophon.com
music.e-onkyo.com/contents/hd.asp
www.classicrecords.com
www.2l.no/hires/index.html
www.shockwave-sound.com

Technology moves quickly and it seems that this may be the resultant future of music delivery whether we like it or not.  In any case, the current crop of AVA DACs are not able to handle music with resolution higher than 16/48, especially DACs containing the Philips DAC chips (please correct me if I am wrong).

At the show I spoke with Frank about the DACs and he mentioned that he is using a Wofson DAC chip in the current differential DAC design but that may not be the final choice.  He mentioned that he may try other Wolfson DACs or perhaps a DAC chip from ESS technology.

After looking at the capability of the Wolfson and ESS DACs I discovered they are able to handle resolutions up to 24/192.  So I wonder if we could possibly have the capability of higher resolutions in future DAC products from AVA.  Seeing that the future of music appears to be headed that way, I believe it would only make AVA products more marketable and functional.

Ted

gjs_cds

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Re: Hi-Rez Request for Van Alstine DAC
« Reply #1 on: 12 May 2008, 02:37 pm »
Hi Ted,

I struggled with this concept myself...  As technology changes and "improves", we (as consumers) feel as if we have to keep up.  And if you search the archives, you'll see quite a few posts (some written by me) relative to upsampling and AVA DACs.  In short, I have now come to the realization that it's a fruitless (albeit expensive) effort.

I stumbled upon a very strong paper (peer-reviewed research paper; citation available upon request) that tested standard redbook recordings (16 bit) w/ the latest and greatest 24 bit bla bla bla.  The results were that people, regardless of the resolution of the system, could *not* tell the difference.  The only time that differences could be detected were at unlistenable volumes.  (In essence, the higher the bit rate, the lower the noise floor.  But it's a moot point at normal listening levels.)

Frank was right all along; there's way more to a DAC than the actual D (digital).  I would suspect that Frank's analog circuitry is what makes his DAC products so special.  It's not the bit rate, upsampling, or other theoretical improvements--as they don't seem to carry over into real life.

Rather than chasing after the White Whale of bit-rate, I'd rather see increased product flexibility... Such as the ability to decode more digital file formats, rather than CDs alone. 

Brett Buck

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Re: Hi-Rez Request for Van Alstine DAC
« Reply #2 on: 12 May 2008, 03:46 pm »
Hi Ted,

I struggled with this concept myself...  As technology changes and "improves", we (as consumers) feel as if we have to keep up.  And if you search the archives, you'll see quite a few posts (some written by me) relative to upsampling and AVA DACs.  In short, I have now come to the realization that it's a fruitless (albeit expensive) effort.

I stumbled upon a very strong paper (peer-reviewed research paper; citation available upon request) that tested standard redbook recordings (16 bit) w/ the latest and greatest 24 bit bla bla bla.  The results were that people, regardless of the resolution of the system, could *not* tell the difference.  The only time that differences could be detected were at unlistenable volumes.  (In essence, the higher the bit rate, the lower the noise floor.  But it's a moot point at normal listening levels.)

Frank was right all along; there's way more to a DAC than the actual D (digital).  I would suspect that Frank's analog circuitry is what makes his DAC products so special.  It's not the bit rate, upsampling, or other theoretical improvements--as they don't seem to carry over into real life.

     That's not just an opinion, it's mathematical fact. The people who put together the CD standard together understood the issue just about perfectly and acted accordingly.

     But I think the original poster wasn't exactly asking about how it worked better, but that the sources may/are being supplied in a different format whether it worked better or not. How will that be accommodated when all the playback equipment is 22Khz/16-bit?  There seem to be several obvious option that don't involve making a off-nominal "cd" format (like downsampling in software before generating a Red Book CD) but that was the question, I think.

      Brett

strat95

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Re: Hi-Rez Request for Van Alstine DAC
« Reply #3 on: 12 May 2008, 04:19 pm »
I really don't want to make this an argument as to whether the CD standard 16/44.1 is good enough and whether 24/96 or even 24/192 sounds better than 16/44.1.  I have not made the comparison myself so I can not comment and there are mixed opinions out there.  As for the comment of "people, regardless of the resolution of the system, could *not* tell the difference", who are those people?  Are they experienced listeners or are they folks who have not experienced good sounding systems.

Everyone seems to listen a bit differently.  In my journey into higher quality sound, at first I could not tell the difference until it was pointed out to me by others what to listen for (reverb trails, timbre, soundstage).  I have done my own tests with friends over the years and some could discern differences while others could not.  This was demonstrated when walking around AK fest and hearing opinions on which room had the best sound.  There were many different opinions.  So I do not trust generalities but I do trust the names it the business of music that have made a difference.  That includes certain audio gear manufacturers as well as certain mastering engineers.

Regardless, the original point was not really about sound quality of higher rez formats but rather the availability of higher rez formats that currently can not be played through a Van Alstine DAC.

The phenomenon of music becoming available in higher rez formats is bound to get more popular.  Whether 24/96 sounds better than well executed 16/44.1 or not, the marketing machine will certainly push the idea that 24/96 is better because it contains more information.

To make this a little clearer I need to mention that upsampling to convert CD 16/44.1 to a higher resolution is NOT what I am talking about here.  Rather, I am considering actual files that exist as 24/96 in a digital audio workstation that were then mixed down (dithered & downsampled) to 16/44.1 for the CD medium.  It is these MASTER files at 24/96 that are apparently being made available for digital download.

Ted

gjs_cds

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Re: Hi-Rez Request for Van Alstine DAC
« Reply #4 on: 12 May 2008, 04:32 pm »
To make this a little clearer I need to mention that upsampling to convert CD 16/44.1 to a higher resolution is NOT what I am talking about here.  Rather, I am considering actual files that exist as 24/96 in a digital audio workstation that were then mixed down (dithered & downsampled) to 16/44.1 for the CD medium.  It is these MASTER files at 24/96 that are apparently being made available for digital download.

My bad--I misread.  And yes--it would be much more convenient to have the ability to read a variety of formats, rather than the redbook standard.  For example, I'd love the ability to network a DAC to my home server, and just centralize my music there.  (Uncompressed file format, of course  :D  )

strat95

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Re: Hi-Rez Request for Van Alstine DAC
« Reply #5 on: 12 May 2008, 04:59 pm »


My bad--I misread.  And yes--it would be much more convenient to have the ability to read a variety of formats, rather than the redbook standard.  For example, I'd love the ability to network a DAC to my home server, and just centralize my music there.  (Uncompressed file format, of course  :D  )
[/quote]

We're on the same page.  As I mentioned Frank and Jim Salk were both running a SlimDevices Squeezebox in their rooms at AK fest.  It's something I have wanted to move to for a long time now especially since the release of the new SlimDevices Squeezebox Duet.  However, the Duet is limited to 24/48 files and my AVA DAC is limited to 16/48.  I have already aquired files that are 24/96 which I am able to play via computer connected to the AVA preamp, but I would like to run them through a Squeezebox like device and then the digital out to my AVA DAC.  Right now this can not work.  It limits the future use of AVA DACs as more and more higher rez files are made available for download.

It seems that the Benchmark Media DAC is VERY popular for such a configuration http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/products/converters.html .  I'm not interested in the Benchmark... I am happy with AVA but currently limited.

TV



Toka

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Re: Hi-Rez Request for Van Alstine DAC
« Reply #6 on: 12 May 2008, 05:14 pm »
However, the Duet is limited to 24/48 files and my AVA DAC is limited to 16/48.

Is that right on the Duet? The specs on the website indicate that the digital out could support 16/44.1 or 48. If thats incorrect, I need a Plan B!  :o

strat95

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Re: Hi-Rez Request for Van Alstine DAC
« Reply #7 on: 12 May 2008, 05:32 pm »
Sorry, meant to say that it will do resolutions up to 24/48, including 16/44.1.

Brett Buck

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Re: Hi-Rez Request for Van Alstine DAC
« Reply #8 on: 13 May 2008, 04:10 am »
I really don't want to make this an argument as to whether the CD standard 16/44.1 is good enough and whether 24/96 or even 24/192 sounds better than 16/44.1.  I have not made the comparison myself so I can not comment and there are mixed opinions out there.  As for the comment of "people, regardless of the resolution of the system, could *not* tell the difference", who are those people?  Are they experienced listeners or are they folks who have not experienced good sounding systems.

   Of course, the difference is not a matter of opinion- it's mathematical truth that 44K is sufficient to reproduce the full range of human hearing. The advantage of larger sampling rates is that it's easier to filter out 96 K than it is 44K, but that's a second-order sort of effect.  The 16 bits are, similarly, easily proven to be sufficient to handle the dynamics possible in even a very quiet room at any level below which hearing damage will result. It's not a matter of listening preferences, or how good someone's ear is, it's mathematical truth.

    But I do agree, in general, that there needs to be some way to handle other sampling formats if that's how the music is going to be supplied. It doesn't necessarily mean that you need to handle in the audio DAC.

     Brett

Airheads4Ever

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Re: Hi-Rez Request for Van Alstine DAC
« Reply #9 on: 16 May 2008, 09:41 pm »
   Of course, the difference is not a matter of opinion- it's mathematical truth that 44K is sufficient to reproduce the full range of human hearing. The advantage of larger sampling rates is that it's easier to filter out 96 K than it is 44K, but that's a second-order sort of effect.  The 16 bits are, similarly, easily proven to be sufficient to handle the dynamics possible in even a very quiet room at any level below which hearing damage will result. It's not a matter of listening preferences, or how good someone's ear is, it's mathematical truth.

    But I do agree, in general, that there needs to be some way to handle other sampling formats if that's how the music is going to be supplied. It doesn't necessarily mean that you need to handle in the audio DAC.

     Brett

I know that bandwidth requirement threads are akin to cabling threads in this forum (or like oil and tire threads on motor vehicle forums) but there is evidence that greater-than-audible frequency bandwidth influences our enjoyment of music.

I'll refer to a rec.audio report on the 1991 AES Convention where the following was stated:
Five Japanese researchers presented the results of a well-controlled
psychoacoustic study that showed that listeners perceive differences
between music signals in which 20 kHz to 100 kHz (yes!) frequency
content is present or missing.  The difference can be quantified as
changes in the listeners' EEGs, but are missed in traditional A/B
testing because the brain patterns "hang on" for a long time and
confuse the results when "A" and "B" alternate quickly.  This is
a hell of a fine piece of research, and the authors received many
appreciative comments from the assembled audience.

It generated a lot of comments that you can read at the rec.audio archive link. Ranging from (paraphrased) "B***Sh**" to "TaDa!!".

I've never seen a follow-up that convinced me that these Japanese researchers were right or wrong.

Just sayin' - this isn't knobs & marbles.

Mark - Berkeley