[John Casler]

I have a Friend and client (Shaukat) who lives in Simi Valley (maybe 30-40 miles from me)

Several weeks ago he visited my house and listened to my two RM40 systems (both 2 channel and HT)

I have both the Son of AMPZILLA (one of B's favorites) and the NuFORCE Ref 9 v2's, since I am a dealer for both.

Shaukat was "impressed" with his audition of both here in my room, but as many who have visited might say, my room IS NOT a typical listening space.

The 2 Channel System is HIGHLY damped sonically and is very pure (as in little reflected sound) sonically. 

The HT is a bit more conventional, but still it will not tell you what a component will sound like in YOUR Room.

So we made plans for me to bring my Preamp (Bryston BP26DA) and the SOA and the Ref 9 v2's, as well as the same cables (higher level AudioQuest) to A/B in his room with his speakers.

First we played several ref cuts through his present system which consisted of the TOP Yamaha Receiver through a 600wpc CineNova.

Frankly it sound way better than it should have.

Josh Groban, Bela Fleck and the Flecktones, Santana, Nils Loghgran (sp) and several other cuts we both were familiar with that had lots of elements from which to form sonic opinions.

First up we ran used the following:

Denon 3800 DVD player (as a transport)
AudioQuest Digital Cable to:
Bryston DAC in the BP26 Preamp
Using AudioQuest Cheetahs (XLR) cables from the Bryston to:
NuForce Reference 9 v2 monoblocs through:
AudioQuest Pikes Peak Speaker Cables to
VMPS BCSE RM40's

Of particular interest was a "peak" Groban hits in one of his cuts that almost all systems distort.  CRYSTAL!!! I mean no distortion and crystal clarity.

The NuForce had gobs of good quality and highly detailed bass as evidenced in the Bela Fleck cut on their live double album of Amazing Grace.  Such depth clarity, attack, detail and tone is hard to live without once you have heard it and we both have heard it

Even at high volumes we heard realistic power, detail tone, soundstage and imaging.

Shaukat's listening position is probably 3-4 feet further from the speakers than mine, and the difference was you heard a larger venue, and performers farther away as in maybe 7th Row Center, rather than "Front Row" Center.  It sounded great.

So we unplugged the preamp from the NuFORCE, and switched the XLRs and Speaker connections over to the SON of AMPZILLA

We had already had the SOA plugged in a bit so as to warm it up.

Back through the Ref cuts again.  Again Josh Groban had NO distortion at all, only purity to his voice, and the Bass and details to it were there.

The primary difference we heard was in "smoothness and tonal quality".

The SOA had a tubelike smoothness, which should not be taken as a "Softness" since it was not muffled or lower in detail, but it just didn't have the "edge" of the NuFORCE.

Bass was equally as detailed but "ever so slightly" not as forcefull as the NuFORCE.

Midrange was silky and rich, but again, this did not take away from the details.

Soundstage and imaging was superb, just like the Ref 9 v2's.

Then we switched back to the NuFORCE to confirm the differences, and it pretty much ended up boiling down to preferences.

The NuFORCE had very deep, and impactful bass.  It was also highly detailed and maybe this caused it to be a bit more forward.  The detail "did not" cause it to be strident, or harsh.

It readily hit hard with high energy transients and dynamics, and produced no listener fatigue (I think we could have listended for hours).

The SON of AMPZILLA was the Rich Tone king, and had deep and quality bass and highs, but balanced in a way that made you think tubes on steroids

No losers in this shootout since both amps did sound wonderful (or else I wouldn't offer them) but it was more of two great choices.

Poor Shaukat, thought that this type of audition would make it easier to make a decision.  No such luck.

Now he has to figure out which amp he can (or can't) live without.  I find myself switching "back and forth" every so often, and can't decide which one I like best either.

They are very different, but also both are very good at what they do, and that is produce some incredible music through B's VMPS Speakers.

 

[Rocket]

Hi John,

I have had the SOA in my system for a couple of years now and it is a true audiophile amplifier.  With most things audio it really comes down to what sonic preference the listener likes.

I have a ps audio hca - 2 that was modified a few years ago and continually I have reliability problems.  In the two years I have had the SOA in my system I have blown a fuse once and it was my own fault.

I'm still after a black faceplate though...

Regards

Rod

[mr_bill]

John,
What listening distance do youuse in your set up in your listening room?
Thanks,
Bill

[Wind Chaser]

You’re a dealer for the Son of Ampzilla?  Isn’t that a James Bongiorno design, that dates back 30 years or so?

The results of this shootout are not surprising.  A while back a friend was contemplating the NuFORCE Ref 9’s.  He received four units to bi-amp and we compared them head to head against his ancient SAE amps.  While I’d give the edge to the NuFORCE, it wasn’t by much of a margin.  AFAIK his SAE’s were stock in every regard.  Makes me wonder how they’d have faired if the caps had been replaced.

I had another Bongiorno amp back in the early eighties, the SUMO 9.  I preferred it to the Threshold Stasis 500 and Audio Research D-40.  Mr. Bongiorno was way ahead of his time. 

[John Casler]

You’re a dealer for the Son of Ampzilla?  Isn’t that a James Bongiorno design, that dates back 30 years or so?

The results of this shootout are not surprising.  A while back a friend was contemplating the NuFORCE Ref 9’s.  He received four units to bi-amp and we compared them head to head against his ancient SAE amps.  While I’d give the edge to the NuFORCE, it wasn’t by much of a margin.  AFAIK his SAE’s were stock in every regard.  Makes me wonder how they’d have faired if the caps had been replaced.

I had another Bongiorno amp back in the early eighties, the SUMO 9.  I preferred it to the Threshold Stasis 500 and Audio Research D-40.  Mr. Bongiorno was way ahead of his time. 

This is actually the Son of AMPZILLA 2000 which is Bongiorno new amp line, and only related via him and his design intentions and updates.

more info can be found here: http://www.ampzilla2000.com/

[John Casler]

John,
What listening distance do youuse in your set up in your listening room?
Thanks,
Bill

Hi Bill,

My 2 channel is now 7-8 feet, and the HT is around 12 feet from ear to (L&R) speaker.

[John Casler]

Hi John,

I have had the SOA in my system for a couple of years now and it is a true audiophile amplifier.  With most things audio it really comes down to what sonic preference the listener likes.

I have a ps audio hca - 2 that was modified a few years ago and continually I have reliability problems.  In the two years I have had the SOA in my system I have blown a fuse once and it was my own fault.

I'm still after a black faceplate though...

Regards

Rod

Hi Rod,

Glad you are still enjoying your Son of AMPZILLA.  I have a feeling my friend was just slightly moving in that direction, but the Ref9 v2's were very competitive on all fronts.

It actually boils down to preferences, instead of deficiencies.

[John Casler]

Well as a follow up, my client decided to go with the NuFORCE, but with the SE v2 which is their flagship monobloc.

He installed them on Saturday, and still has a HUGE toothy smile on his face even today.

They surpassed his expectations.  He described it as the combination of the best qualities from the NuFORCE Ref9 V2 that I took to his house "AND" the SoA.

It is always a great thing when the client/customer/friend is VERY HAPPY they made the move.

[Brax]

John,

Where were the pots set when your freind was running his Cinenova? Did he ever have any problem with the Cinenova/RM40 combo?

[warnerwh]

Brax: Where the pots are set on these speakers relates more to room acoustics.  I use a Cinenova amp with my RM 40's and have had zero problems. 

[Brax]

The reason I asked where the pots were set was, I was setting up the bass so I had the Highs and mid pots all the way down. After pushing the speakers hard for about 20 minutes, I went to adjust the pots. The knob (with only gental pressure) seem to push in. I went to grab it and burned my fingertips. I didn't realize they had gotten so hot. I thought I had fried these but the next day they seem to work fine again. I will replace them just to be on the safe side when I vitrify my PRs. Brian said I can purchase replacements at Partsexpress. They are 100w 8 ohm rated but I found some at Madisound that are rated at 200w so I may go with them as a safety factor.

While doing the bass tests (I had the speakers jumping) I did notice a chunk of the sealer from the seam between the cone and phase plug hole came off. After buying the RM40s and the Cinenova recently I should wait a month or two before I will do the mid woofer upgrade. But I will be doing it.

Since my speakers are of a 2003 vintage (maybe even 2002) I will do a bit of upgrading. Mid bass upgrade, Vitrifing the PRs, replacing the l-pads, putting on a wider foot, lambs wool damping and internal bracing. Anything else I should consider while my speakers are down for a tuneup?

In 2 channel the system sounds great, but for HT not so good. This is because of the receiver I am using as a pre/pro. The lowest crossover it allows for the fronts is 80hz even with the speakers set to large so they don't have much bass in HT. The crossover for these shouls be atleast 40hz and even 30 if possible. The speakers have the bass output to run at this level and sound good. So along with the midwoofer upgrade I need a pre/pro. I am a man of many needs.

[John Casler]

The reason I asked where the pots were set was, I was setting up the bass so I had the Highs and mid pots all the way down. After pushing the speakers hard for about 20 minutes, I went to adjust the pots. The knob (with only gental pressure) seem to push in. I went to grab it and burned my fingertips. I didn't realize they had gotten so hot. I thought I had fried these but the next day they seem to work fine again. I will replace them just to be on the safe side when I vitrify my PRs. Brian said I can purchase replacements at Partsexpress. They are 100w 8 ohm rated but I found some at Madisound that are rated at 200w so I may go with them as a safety factor.

While doing the bass tests (I had the speakers jumping) I did notice a chunk of the sealer from the seam between the cone and phase plug hole came off. After buying the RM40s and the Cinenova recently I should wait a month or two before I will do the mid woofer upgrade. But I will be doing it.

Since my speakers are of a 2003 vintage (maybe even 2002) I will do a bit of upgrading. Mid bass upgrade, Vitrifing the PRs, replacing the l-pads, putting on a wider foot, lambs wool damping and internal bracing. Anything else I should consider while my speakers are down for a tuneup?

In 2 channel the system sounds great, but for HT not so good. This is because of the receiver I am using as a pre/pro. The lowest crossover it allows for the fronts is 80hz even with the speakers set to large so they don't have much bass in HT. The crossover for these shouls be atleast 40hz and even 30 if possible. The speakers have the bass output to run at this level and sound good. So along with the midwoofer upgrade I need a pre/pro. I am a man of many needs.

Brax,

OK, from your description you have "fried" your pots.

Running your L-Pads "low" meaning less than 10:00 increases the resistance.  If you had yours turned down even further, then it is almost at its max resistance.

The CineNova running in two channel is a beast, and at 4 ohms is over 600w continuos and peaks who knows?

However, it can be driven into "clipping" (as all amps can - do you have it plugged straight into the wall? or to a Power Conditioner?)

If it is outputting clipped wave forms, into "closed down" pots, then you have a huge heat build up.  Additionally, it the pots could have been exposed to repeated bouts of the same before you received them.

Replacement is a good idea at this point.

I would also suggest running them "more open" and adjusting the higher frequncies by convergence more.  That is, either toe them more in, or out, to reduce HF info ever so slightly, rather than reducing Pot position.

Ues the pots to then "balance" mids and highs, rather than as a level control.

Also, if you have the CineNova plugged into a Power Conditioned    ASAP plugg it straight into the WALL