[low.pfile]

I just posted this over at Apple Support pages in more detail.
http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1440896&stqc=true

I hope the gurus over there can shed some light.

Sound Output to both USB and Optical simultaneously in 10.4 on G5?

Is it possible under OS X 10.4.11 on a G5 Dual PPC 2.3Ghz to direct iTunes to output simultaneously to both a USB device and an Optical device?

I ask because there do not seem to be standard OS settings to do so. I have tried (and tried) various Audio Midi Setup settings, including creating an Aggregate Device containing the 2 devices to no avail: each device independently works....but not simultaneously. Maybe Aggregate devices only work with multiple like devices? OS> Preferences > Sound also only allows one output at a time.

System:
G5 Dual 2.3G PPC /3GB RAM, OSX 10.4.11, iTunes 7.6
Wavelength Brick DAC (USB)
Monarchy NM24 Tube DAC (SPDIF/Optical)


LONG VERSION:

The context is a home stereo setup in two different rooms.....I have successfully output iTunes music to my two separate external DAC units (one is a USB DAC and the other is a SPDIF/Optical Toslink DAC), using the appropriate Sound Preferences and Audio Midi Setup settings. Though this success comes only when output is directed to just ONE of the DACs at a time.

My experience is that using the Audio Midi Setup's Aggregate Device feature it is not possible to combine different types of output (USB + Optical). The creation steps seem simple select each device to create the combo device. but when the newly created Aggregate device is selected as the Output in Preferences/AudMidSetup, sound only comes from one of the two devices which comprise the created aggregate device. I experimented with both the Device Structure order and Clock source to no avail.

I have even tried a third party app called SoundFlower as a part of that experiment. End result to it all is that I could not get simultaneous sound output to USB and Optical.

Interestingly, I did get simultaneous output to both DACs(sort of) using the unfamiliar Core Audio SDK AudioUnit "thingy" using the Output Plug-ins. That was practically a fluke. But I found that the sound quality was below standard output quality. It had a processed sound which defeats the purpose of using the otherwise high quality external DACs connected to my audio systems.

I have researched online: in audio, computer, and pro-sound forums as well as Apple Support pages and did not find one instance of someone successfully outputting to both Optical and USB ports. And I also found many instances of people reporting that the Aggregator not working properly. So my second question is what are the limitations of the Aggregator? Nothing seems to be mentioned on the associated Apple pages.

I am just trying to have a single session of iTunes on G5 Mac simultaneously send output to 2 different hard-wired stereo systems (in two different rooms) using the 2 external DACs I currently have. I have wireless options available but that is not my desired connection path for this. So for now I currently just send my iTunes audio out to each DAC system independently.

Maybe my goal is too big for standard OS functionality?

I hope to hear differently!

Thanks, Ed

G5 dual PPC + macbook pro   Mac OS X (10.4.11)     

Or maybe some digital gurus over here have a solution? (without adding any additional hardware! )

Cheers,
Ed

[Levi]

Is the wavelenght Brick DAC works in your G5?  If it is supported, I don't see why you cannot output the sound of iTunes to the DAC then into your stereo system.  Only one dac at a time and not both.

[low.pfile]

....I have successfully output iTunes music to my two separate external DAC units (one is a USB DAC and the other is a SPDIF/Optical Toslink DAC), using the appropriate Sound Preferences and Audio Midi Setup settings. Though this success comes only when output is directed to just ONE of the DACs at a time.

....Only one dac at a time and not both.

Levi,

That is exactly what I want: output to BOTH. that is why am asking:
a) if it is technically possible with G5 hardware and OS software? and
b) how to configure the OS settings.

So yes the Brick DAC works fine with my G5. And the Monarchy NM24 works fine with my G5. These DACs are in 2 different rooms fed by a single mac.

Regards, Ed

[low.pfile]

cliche but " a picture is worth 1k words" so here is a diagram of my DAC(s) setup

 

CLICK IMAGE ABOVE for full size diagram.

ed

[Crimson]

Unfortunately, no. 

I had a similar situation a while back where I was using two USB dacs. I looked high and low trying to stream the output to both simultaneously, and even talked to a third tier Apple tech support person. Bottom line is the audio can only be streamed to one port at a time (including the computer's speakers).

[Tubo]

The only way I know to stream to 2 or more stereos is wirelessly via AirPort Express or Apple TV. From AE you can Toslink to your DAC. I do that with a stereo in my living room and a stereo in my bedroom. Computer speakers can also play simultaneously.

[low.pfile]

Unfortunately, no. 

I had a similar situation a while back where I was using two USB dacs. I looked high and low trying to stream the output to both simultaneously, and even talked to a third tier Apple tech support person. Bottom line is the audio can only be streamed to one port at a time (including the computer's speakers).

Crimson, I really wonder if the Audio MIDI Setup's Aggregate Device feature would have worked with 2 like units? (USB in your case) I don't have another USB output device to test. Hmm going to try to track something down.  Wondering that because once I compare my DACs in my systems and a friends I might just get another of the winner (if there is one!)

Enjoy your music, Ed

[low.pfile]

The only way I know to stream to 2 or more stereos is wirelessly via AirPort Express or Apple TV. From AE you can Toslink to your DAC. I do that with a stereo in my living room and a stereo in my bedroom.

Tubo,  Yep, I have done the wireless connection approach to my other unit. The problem is AE wireless signal drops (could be neighbors phones, microwaves, ??) The drops were too frequent (couple of times per night) to be acceptable to me. That is what caused my to use an Toslink cable through the wall from the computer to Living Room DAC.

....Computer speakers can also play simultaneously.

Yes, computer speakers and analog-out work simultaneously with the optical output with an unexpected setting...... when I set my output (in Sound Preferences) to [edit] Built-in Audio, sound is sent to both the optical port and to the analog ports (there are 2 on a G5: one front, one rear). This differs from Mac laptops and Mac Mini which both use combo 3mm headphone/toslink optical port, so obviously only one can chosen.

Cheers, Ed

[Tubo]

low.pfile, I agree with you that AE wireless dropouts are unacceptable. When I was living in the suburbs, in a house, I had no dropouts. Now that I am in a 23-unit condo, I have a few dropouts (though thankfully and mysteriously, not in the evening). It seems everybody and all our other neighbors have wireless networks and microwaves, and wireless phones.

Apple today announced the new Airport Express with 802.11n, which is faster, stronger, and, hopefully, less prone to interference. I just ordered 2 to replace my old units. I will post again when I get them, in a week or two, and let you know whether dropouts are still a problem.

[planet10]

Perhaps the solution is an AppleTV and an Ethernet cable thru the wall....

dave

[low.pfile]

Perhaps the solution is an AppleTV and an Ethernet cable thru the wall....

dave

dave, will you please provide a few more details please?  what is the chain? is the AppleTV replacing something or adding to the chain?  thnx

[planet10]

I'd use it to replace the Airport Express you originally had in the 2nd room. It can independently access your iTunes library, and wired with a cable there will be no dropouts.

dave

[low.pfile]

Hi again.
Maybe I was a bit hasty in my conclusion that the AU_Lab application did not provide acceptable dual output -it was 3am! The other day I started over and created another AUL setup file. I NOW HAVE AUDIO STREAMING TO 2 DACS. I've been switching back and forth with and without AUL for 2 days trying to determine if there is any audio disortion. I am not 100% sure. I hope someone else will try to run AUL to give an opinion on any audio degredation (AUL works with just one DAC connected as well)

These are the programs I used:

    * Soundflower - audio pass-through utlitity http://www.cycling74.com/products/soundflower (freeware)
    * AU Lab from Apple application development tool kit – Xcode 2.5 download http://developer.apple.com/tools/download/  or from "Developer Tools" from your Mac OS X Install disc (free/registration required)
    * Audio Switcher 1.2.1 http://tc.versiontracker.com/product/redir/kind/0/db/mac/id/33570/ (freeware)

Though not meant as a Multiple output tutorial his article: http://www.macosxhints.com/article.php?story=200504261547021 along with one other I lost, helped me set up AUL to have "Dual Output" to my two DACs. I must say that macosxhints.com is where I feel like I am treading water wearing 25lb weight belt. I am no Mac expert. Either ignore or embrace one of the "fun things" to do with AudioUnits: simulated Quadrophonic sound. So, essentially, I just followed the process and added one additional Output.

Below is a screenshot of my AU Lab Control panel (top left corner) and Audio Midi Setup.



CLICK Image above for full size version.

:::::::::::::::::

IMPORTANT!: Make sure your amp/speakers/volume is set very LOW while performing this procedure. If an error is made in settings, channels can be fed into one another and cause feedback which MAY damage your speakers. TURN VOLUME DOWN NOW.


PROCEDURE FOR SOUND OUTPUT TO MULTIPLE DIGITAL DAC DEVICES: APPLE POWER MAC G5 / OS X 10.4

Here is my modification to macosxhints.com "Fun with Audio Units" procedure linked to in the post above.

    * Install the Soundflower application. This app passes through audio. A computer Restart may be needed.
    * Install Apple's Developer Tools
    * Open up Audio Midi Setup (in /Applications/Utilities). In the Audio menu, go to Open Aggregate Device Editor. This lets you combine audio streams together but presenting itself as a single device to the computer
    * Create a new aggregate device, give it a custom name ("Multi-Outputs" will be used in the following steps)  Under "Structure:" Drag the Audio Device name so that Soundflower(2ch) is on the top. Also Check Clock for this device. The next device is the Built-in Audio, then your USB device. Check the "Use" buttons for each Device you want. Choose "Done"
    * In the AMS,  Set the "Default Output" dropdown to the newly created Aggregate Device (Multi-Outputs). Now you won't hear sound playing through at this time.
    * Open up the AU Lab application over your top level folder computername/Developer/Applications/Audio.
    * Create a new document. Use these settings:
          o Audio Device: "Multi-Outputs" (or your custom device name).
          o Outputs tab: Drag the red box to the Stream 2 (#3/#4)
          o Outputs tab: Click the (+) Add Output button and drag the new red box to the Stream 3 (#5/#6)
          o Inputs tab: Click the (+) Add Input" and drag the red box to "Soundflower Input Stream #1" (#1/#2), if necessary. Click OK.
      You should now be able to hear sound. But from both outputs?
    * One more thing: In the AUL control panel:  Highlight both #1 and #2 boxes in the Volume tab section, located at theleft side of the cantrol panel. Now Save this file. The saved file must be used to have this work again. Make a script/automator action to automatically open it, if desired.
    * No other settings are adjusted in AUL.
    * I did get a couple "CPU Overload" error messages in the AUL window, which did not interrupt music or change the sound.

    Note: in my screen shot the custom Aggregate Device shown is named "1SunFlwr2BuiltinAudio3BrickDAC" which above is referenced as "Multi-Outputs"

I use Audio Switcher on the menu bar to easily choose from my custom Aggregate Device (used for Multi-Output) or the standard Devices. I've been using some very simple vocal tracks and even a constant frequency signal audio file to compare AUL vs direct to USB. During that switch there is a "snap" sound when toggling so it is a bit tough to hear "side-by-side." At least now I know that computer is capable of sending to multiple outputs. The analog ports also are outputting sound during the AUL session.

Enjoy your music, ed

[Crimson]

Whoa! Nice find! 

I currently don't have a need for multiple hard-wired streams, but it's good to know. Let us know, over time, if you perceive any sound degradation or bias towards one output over the other.

[low.pfile]

DANG IT!

OK maybe this approach does not work?!! With sound being sent to both outputs using the settings above, after a few hours of playing iTunes, one output is very distorted (SPDIF output) while the USB DAC is fine. hmmm? and Dang it!

[Crimson]

DANG IT!

OK maybe this approach does not work?!! With sound being sent to both outputs using the settings above, after a few hours of playing iTunes, one output is very distorted (SPDIF output) while the USB DAC is fine. hmmm? and Dang it!

Any updates?   

[low.pfile]

The update is: I gave up.

While 2 outputs was greatly desired it was not essential in my situation. So I still use both types of output-but each one independently for "listening sessions". (Because someone will ask: I have yet to compare the two DACs on the same amp/speakers.) When I want both systems playing simultaneously I am really listening to music in the background, so using the Airport Express into my Denon in the living room is fine (bypasses the external DAC). Because it is just a simple input selector, I have compared the AE(toslink) + Denon amp vs the Monarchy(toslink) + Denon amp ....the Monarchy wins. It has more detail, sustain, separation, depth (about 30% more FWIW) I think the AE route is very decent, especially given that it is wireless!

So I am onto other things now ..... RWA 30.2 + Devore super8s and maybe MWI 9.0 

Cheers, ed

[Crimson]

The update is: I gave up.

While 2 outputs was greatly desired it was not essential in my situation. So I still use both types of output-but each one independently for "listening sessions". (Because someone will ask: I have yet to compare the two DACs on the same amp/speakers.) When I want both systems playing simultaneously I am really listening to music in the background, so using the Airport Express into my Denon in the living room is fine (bypasses the external DAC). Because it is just a simple input selector, I have compared the AE(toslink) + Denon amp vs the Monarchy(toslink) + Denon amp ....the Monarchy wins. It has more detail, sustain, separation, depth (about 30% more FWIW) I think the AE route is very decent, especially given that it is wireless!

So I am onto other things now ..... RWA 30.2 + Devore super8s and maybe MWI 9.0 

Cheers, ed

But what about AE to Monarchy? 

Also, I haven't seen any reports regarding the Brick!

BTW, that 30.2 is something I'm currently lusting for (maybe going to a pair of Omega Max's or Bi/Dipoles).

[low.pfile]

But what about AE to Monarchy? 

Also, I haven't seen any reports regarding the Brick!

Re: AE to Monarchy DAC..... The monarchy is already hard wired Toslink from G5. Don't want to connect/reconnect repeatedly.

Re: Brick DAC report: you got me. I am due but really want to make a few comparisons. Built-ins vs. DAC1 vs DAC2. need some time for that.

ed