[Alwayswantmore]

...I FINALLY closed on my new house!

Unfortunately, the spare bedroom I'm planning to use for a dedicated listening room sucks. More accurately -- it rings. Clapping hands produces a 'boingy' ring that last approximately 2 seconds. Yes, that's a full "One-onethousand, two-onethousand..."!

While I have a couple months of painting and honey-dos to complete prior to tackling my new listening room, my imagination easily drifts to the new room while doing these mundane tasks. 

Honesty, the echo scares me, but I'm hoping the addition of room treatments can transform the room into a great listening space.

As a backup, I have a 2,400 s.f. unfinished walk-out basement (including 9-foot ceilings). I'm sure I could craft a great room in this space, but the basement has no HVAC, and budget to build a proper listening room is not an easy option in the forseeable future. So, I hope to make my spare bedroom a worthy home for my 2ch system.

ROOM
- 13 x 12, with smooth 9 ceilings
- Enter from a hall facing long wall, with two windows on left wall
- Thick-plush carpet, 8 lb. REBOND pad over Avanteck (wood) sub-floor

NOTE: Ignore the word Concrete Slab in drawing. The room is now a wooden subfloor.



SYSTEM
- Omega Compact Hemps (latest driver), on recommended sand-filled Skyland stands
- ACI Force XL sub woofer
- Wadia 830 CDP, w/ factory updated 2nd power supply board
- RWA Signature 30.2 amp

WHERE TO GO FROM HERE?

When I first contracted to build the house early last year, both Ethan and Bryan provided great input, helping me better understand acoustics and room treatments. Based on budget constraints, I'm leaning toward GIK, maybe even one of their packages. I would also consider a combination of GIK and DIY if that would help a limited budget tame such a live room.

Previous research has evolved my criteria so now...

1.) The room is fully dedicated to music (i.e. no need to contend with TV placement)
2.) Budget has doubled to $800 - $1,200 range (part of this may be needed for stands)
3.) This will be my 'man-cave,' so the WAF has been greatly broadened

SO...

Bryan, I'm thinking something like your GIK Room Kit Package #2 + wood stands for many (most panels) [Stands needed to provide mobility for accessing closet / hallway, & working around the window issues, etc.]

Based on my budget, on a scale of 1 - 10, how well do you think this room could sound???

Thanks in advance for the continued support of AudioCircle members and sponsors. Since discovering this form, the majority of my audio purchases have gone to forum sponsors including RWA, ACI and Omega, and I LOVE the results! Great stuff from great people, delivering an excellent value!

Kent

[bpape]

Hi Kent.

With that kind of budget, there should be no problem getting you to the 8+ range out of 10.  It's not the budget limitations so much as the room just being smaller and relatively square in shape that are holding it back.  The higher ceilings are a definite advantage though.

As for the room package, that's a viable option but I think we could find a better solution for you for around the same money as package 2.  I'm also trying to think ahead to make sure everything you'd purchase would be reusable and required in a larger room later down the road to minimize long term costs for you.

In the spirit of AC rules, it's probably best to take specifics about purchases offline.  Shoot me an email at bryan.p@gikacoustics.com and we'll work on a solution that's best for your situation.

Bryan

[Alwayswantmore]

Hi Bryan, thanks for the response. Like I said, I've got a couple months of work to do on the house before getting to this room.

Just knowing I can get good sound out of a small room gives me comfort. Walking into the room now gives me basement envy (wishing I could do it up 1st class in the basement, where I'm confident I could get great results. Even a simple clapping of the hands tells me the basement hold greater promise than my small room).

I'll hold off on e-mailing you for now, and save that privilege (and investment of your time) until I'm closer to being able to place an order.

Thanks for responding, and hopefully we can get serious about this in the not to distant future 

[mixsit]

In addition to the standard room treatment.. see 'Closets and Hallways' but think 'variations that help in breaking up and smoothing the primary room's resonances -and a possible bass trap. (What's in the closet? 
Wayne

[Alwayswantmore]

(What's in the closet?)

Hi Wayne. Nothing yet. But my wife is a packrat, so eventually it will be filled with clothes and knickknacks.

[bpape]

More clothes and less nicknacks makes a better bass absorber 

Bryan

[nrenter]

Given my experiences with my room, I too believe 8+ is achievable.

I'll be posting an update to my saga in the next couple of weeks.

[Quiet Earth]

Clapping your hands in an empty room should produce the ringing that you hear. So actually,,,,,,,,,,you are off to a good start  . Putting the furniture and seating in the room will go a long way towards reducing that slap echo that you hear. If there is no carpet on the floor then a big area rug will reduce it a lot too. Line the walls with record shelves for diffusion and you not only provide function, you eliminate that slap echo even more.

Live in the room.

Use it.

Put all of your stuff in there.

Get to know it well before you drop bank on room acoustics for the sterill recording studio environment.


Oh, yes, and congratulations on your house!!!!

[bpape]

Sorry but I have to jump in here.  Yes, carpet will help in the very high frequencies.  Furniture will help a little bit broadband but one or 2 chairs is hardly enough.  As for record shelves, they will do nothing in terms of diffusion.  To provide true diffusion, a carefully calculated series of cavities of specific widths and depths with a specific pattern is required - or one can use polys. 

Records may provide some scattering but it's not even in the spatial domain and it will do nothing in the time domain.  If anything, it will provide a very small amount of upper mid/high frequency absorbtion which you don't necessarily want in the rear half of a 2 channel listening room, is not going to reach deep enough to act as a proper side wall reflection point absorber, and will definitely not reach deep enough to help deal with any low frequency nulls generated based on the distance between rear wall and seating location.  So where does that leave us?  Along the front wall????

A room with LONG ringing like that is a sign of an overly live space.  A room large enough will not support the ringing for nearly as long - even if bare.  More space is always desirable. 

I will agree that one should get to know one's room and how the system works in it as it is before messing too much.  That's the best way to get seating and speaker placement optimized.  And no, we don't design 2 channel listening rooms to be 'sterile recording studio environments.'

Bryan

[Quiet Earth]

A room with LONG ringing like that is a sign of an overly live space. 

Bryan

Or a guy walking through his new empty house listening to slap echo as he claps his hands. FWIW, I am not suggesting that he shouldn't explore professional room treatment. I am suggesting that he should not freak out over the sound of a completely bare, uncarpeted room.

Maybe I misread the post 
My apologies if I misunderstood.

[bpape]

No biggie - just identifying some things.  I'll agree that pretty much any empty room will echo to a point.  If it subsides in less than a second, the room is of good size.  2 full seconds is VERY long and not unexpected in a smaller and almost square room.  Air is a wonderful absorber in the mid and high frequencies.

And I didn't take it that you were trying to talk him out of treatments.  I just wanted to make sure that the things he did to the room will actually provide the things that the room requires.

Bryan

[Quiet Earth]

 

[Alwayswantmore]

Oh, yes, and congratulations on your house!!!!

Thanks. I am excited about the house, great open floor plan on a nice lot in a great subdivision. Problem is I'm not happy with the builder's finish work, so I'm doing drywall repair, sanding and such, and putting a fresh coat of paint on everything including the ceiling and trim. The house is 2400 sf, so its a big job. Luckily we have our rental unit through the end of March, so I have a couple months to get the work done (and I only work part time). That is also the reason the listening room needs to take second chair to the work I'm doing now.

BTW: Even with furniture and near-field listening, I KNOW this room needs help.

Re: Carpet. Very thick plush carpet, on 8 lb REBOND pad, over avantech wood sub floors, so the floors are as dead as they're going to get.

[Alwayswantmore]

A room with LONG ringing like that is a sign of an overly live space. 

Bryan

Or a guy walking through his new empty house listening to slap echo as he claps his hands. FWIW, I am not suggesting that he shouldn't explore professional room treatment. I am suggesting that he should not freak out over the sound of a completely bare, uncarpeted room.

Maybe I misread the post 
My apologies if I misunderstood.

Clarification - carpet is in already.

[8thnerve]

You can make a big dent in that echo for $150 with 4 Response Pro Corners.  For $1200 you can get to an 8 or 9 easily.  If the empty room is a 1, with carpet and furniture you'll be at say a 3 or 4.  Here's where these packages will get you.

Lowest cost: $150 (6+)
4 Response Pro Corners

Medium: $650 (7.5)
4 Response Pro Corners
8 Response Pro Seams

Max budget: $1200 (8.5)
4 Adapt Triangles
8 Response Pro Seams

In a simple room like this, with smooth walls, you can sink a ton of money into putting big panels all over the walls.  If you want to get rid of that echo though, and get reference level sound, leave the walls the way they are and treat the corners!

Nathan Loyer
Eighth Nerve

[bpape]

Again, corners are important - but they're not everything.  You can't just ignore ringing (especially in the bass which masks a lot of details), balanced decay time, early reflections, nulls off the rear wall, SBIR, etc.  I'm not suggesting that you kill the room - just that there are certain things that should be addressed - more minimalistically in 2 channels spaces I'll agree.

If you want to discuss specifics

4 Tri Traps (in the corners...)
2 244 (behind each speaker to deal with SBIR that you WILL have in a small room - can't get speakers and seat far enough away from a boundary to avoid it)
3 242 (one each side wall for reflections and 1 beween the speakers to improve imaging.)

~ $800

Add in a pair of 244's straddling the rear wall/ceiling corner for additional bass and corner control - $930

That's a system that addresses:

SBIR
Broadband decay time
Deep bass control
Early reflections
Honking out of the rear corner.

It places control not only at the ends, but also in the middle of each of the room's 3 dimensions and catches 36' of room corner and 4 of the room's 8 tri corners.

... yet covers only approximately 11% of the room's surface area.  Plenty of life left.

Bryan

[dknightd]

Here is what I'd do if possible.

1) 4" 703 (or equivalent) at first reflection points on side walls and ceilings.
2) Make closet door, and symetric  hallway door (not ilistrated - I'd add it to be symetric
with the closet door), out of framed 4-6" 703. You have the possibility to make two very nice
bass traps in your rear corners - use that if at all possible.
3) Stack some more 703 in your front corners.