And you think multichannel will survive?

gotmikey · « **on:** 3 Sep 2003, 10:37 pm »

Check it out boys...

http://news.yahoo.com/fc?tmpl=fc&cid=34&in=tech&cat=digital_music

"Garbage in, Garbage out" has never been so true.

Hantra · « **Reply #1 on:** 3 Sep 2003, 11:13 pm »

Ohh. . . Wait, wait, wait!!!!

I love this!

Quote

Part of that stems from the continued proliferation of illegal file trading, which has caused an estimated $700 million of lost CD sales since 1999.

This is amazing! It absolutely pisses me off to see irresponsible reporting like that. I mean, they might as well hire Jason Blair while they're at it. It's kinda like saying that Kobe Bryant raped that girl, and had fun doing it. Statements with NO truth, and no supporting facts have no place in journalism. Unfortunately, the people in control of our schools, colleges, and courses don't see it that way, and we now have an entire GENERATION of irresponsible journalists to deal with.

I'm gonna go fire up the grill so I can eat away more quickly at the ozone layer. hehehe

Let's all say it together:

CORRELATION DOES NOT, AND NEVER HAS PROVED CAUSATION.

If we could teach only that, our freaking journalists would be better off. I hate to think about how many people just don't care enough to form their own opinions, and listen verbatim to the journalists as the gospel.

gotmikey · « **Reply #2 on:** 3 Sep 2003, 11:30 pm »

Hantra,

You've lost me here, bud. Can you explain where you stand without the big words and quotes? Thanks.

Hantra · « **Reply #3 on:** 3 Sep 2003, 11:40 pm »

My bad. . .

Do you believe that illegal file trading HAS CAUSED an estimated $700 million of lost CD sales since 1999?

B

gotmikey · « **Reply #4 on:** 3 Sep 2003, 11:51 pm »

OOOOOHHHHHH. I'm with ya now! 700 million big ones? Hell NO! Although there is no objective way to place a monetary value on how much the music industry, (aka: corporate america) has lost due to file sharing, I do feel it has been a cause in the recent decline in CD sales. Who gives a $#@t though? I personally was never a big fan of paying $16.00 for an item that cost pennies to manufacture, and to watch a gigantic chunk of that money go to the small few at the top. I'm probably opening a can of worms making this statement, but I've always felt a greater resentment towards the music industry compared to NIKE and the other manufacturers who practice the same business ethics. I guess my main reason for posting this was to see how all of us would react to the study's findings. I personally wouldn't mind that much, just mean that I'd have to get more into vinyl.

Hantra · « **Reply #5 on:** 3 Sep 2003, 11:59 pm »

Quote

I do feel it has been a cause in the recent decline in CD sales.

I hate to hijack the thread. . . But. .. I don't think it has been even a significant cause.

Carlman · « **Reply #6 on:** 4 Sep 2003, 12:03 am »

I had to move this... it wasn't 2-channel and is clearly about trends in music software.

gotmikey · « **Reply #7 on:** 4 Sep 2003, 12:21 am »

No harm in hijacking. Just means no one else is as interested... and/or as bored as we are.

This is by no means fully representative of the cd purchasing market, but a study I conducted approxamately 1.5 years ago of 200 college students who were aware of filesharing, showed that 88% stopped buying compact discs altogether because they could get whatever songs were on the market plus unreleased versions of songs and burn them for free (or the cost of the CD's). Not what you would call audiophile quality, but not everyone is an audiophile in this world, and I'd suspect most people would sacrifice some sound quality for free. As the saying goes, "There ain't nothin' like free!" Now, I'm not saying this is okay, but I do feel that it's what the music industry deserves for what they've charged the music listeners for discs in past years. This belief was formed through my own studies AND not through reading a study from a journalist or any other person claiming to be so. Moreover, look into the cd case of any 18-35 year old (the bulk of the CD purchasing market) and you will notice an increasing amount of burned cd's. This is NOT a myth. With this, it is hard to say that filesharing has not been a major constituent in the decline of CD sales. Hantra, don't take this as me backing up the RIAA because I am not. However, given the hard facts that I have found through my own studies, it is evident filesharing has made an impact. Of course it isn't the only cause to the declining sales of CD's. There are other possibilities such as a sagging market, the decline of quality music in general (another one of my personal reasons not to buy CD's), and others.

BlackCat · « **Reply #8 on:** 4 Sep 2003, 02:54 pm »

They're losing money because they have a shitty product. Todays bands all sound the same. They know 3 chords (all fifths) on the guitar and can play them really fast. Who'd pay for this crap, when you can get it free. If it actually cost money, no one would listen to it.

Carlman · « **Reply #9 on:** 4 Sep 2003, 03:28 pm »

Quote from: BlackCat

They're losing money because they have a shitty product. Todays bands all sound the same. They know 3 chords (all fifths) on the guitar and can play them really fast. Who'd pay for this crap, when you can get it free. If it actually cost money, no one would listen to it.

I couldn't agree more. There are a few bands out there with some talent.. but, often the talented bands are all about musical complexity so, they don't get popular. Or, they have talent but, no soul or some other element that makes people able to connect emotionally. It's a tough balancing act to find. From what I've seen, the industry isn't concerned with finding bands that have that interesting element that people might like... they want tried and true money makers. The Police would never make it today.... they play real instruments and don't sample other stuff... oh, and they don't maximize all the levels in the mastering...

The record labels and the radio stations need to stop working together from a marketing perspective. Let music get appreciated naturally.

To get good music to market, a new method for music to get to the public is needed. The MP3 thing has helped a good bit... but, so has Amazon.... and so has the web in general. I hope things keep moving the way they are... CD's will get cheaper and more bands will get heard.... even the one's that don't 'test well' in marketing studies.

bwkendall · « **Reply #10 on:** 5 Sep 2003, 08:18 pm »

I am tired of the major labels running around screaming that the CD sky is falling. If the CD sky is falling, it is only falling on them.

To some extent I suspect it is true that the rapid leaps in DVD sales has had some impact on CD sales. But the conditions that are affecting the major labels are:

1. Their stables of stale, me-too artists and musicians.
2. Restrictive or inhibiting deals they make with artists.
3. Overpriced product (when compared to the entertainment value of DVD).
4. Lots and lots and lots of bands and individual artists are selling their recordings direct or through outlets like CDBaby.com.

Item #4 is much bigger than many people expect. Artists prefer to take this route because they can get anywhere from $4 to $6 in profits per CD sold, as opposed to $2 to $3 with a label. Plus the artists have full artistic control over their product. None of these sales are included in the major labels' or RIAA numbers.

And why are these artists so successful in selling their recordings direct? Because many of us want to hear something new and fresh. It's a win-win, you get better music for 50% - 60% of what you'd have to pay for the same old trash from the major labels.

SWG255 · « **Reply #11 on:** 9 Sep 2003, 12:06 am »

Quote from: Carlman

I couldn't agree more. There are a few bands out there with some talent.. but, often the talented bands are all about musical complexity so, they don't get popular. Or, they have talent but, no soul or some other element that makes people able to connect emotionally. It's a tough balancing act to find. From what I've seen, the industry isn't concerned with finding bands that have that interesting element that people might like... they want tried and true money makers. The Police would never make it tod ...

Hi,

I know I'm very late to this thread, but I wanted to add what a musician friend says about the major music labels: "The problem with the music companies is that they care about their product least of all, that is, they care about the music least."

As an aside, did anyone else catch the news story that Universal Music Group is lowering the "retail" price of their CDs across the board? (actually there were exceptions for boxed sets and the like) This confirms my assertion that this is an economic problem and won't be solved by lawyers in courtrooms.

"Send lawyers, guns and money to get me out 'a this!" -Warren Zevon

Beezer · « **Reply #12 on:** 9 Sep 2003, 01:15 am »

When didn't the majority of pop music suck ass? If I remember correctly, Foreigner, REO Speedwagon and Journey ruled the charts in my early teen years. Unfortunately, good popular music is the exception more than the rule. It's always been big business and the radio stations have always been in cahoots with the labels. That said, my 16 year old neice and her friends find plenty to listen to, just like every teenager has for the last 50 years, and I'm sure there is plenty of decent music to be found - Radiohead, Pearl Jam, Dave Matthews, etc...

It seems to me that the combination of high CD prices and effectively free alternatives, whether from a friend's CD or the web, has killed CD sales. The major label's distribution methodology, and therefore its business model, has been exposed as grossly inefficient.

So far, their only response has been litigation, but that seems like a dead end to me. The genie's out of the bottle. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

Beez

Tbadder1 · « **Reply #13 on:** 10 Sep 2003, 05:15 pm »

Please God, let surround sound crash and burn. I can't afford this sheeeeeet the way it is. If I gotta buy extra speakers, processors, well, I think I'll just climb a water tower one day and start shooting. Talk about an evil plot to cover up a lack of quality music being made, talk about snake oil, talk about being bamboozled, talk about turning music into special fx, talk about bowing to the god of room reflections--geez I'm frustrated. Can ya tell?

God, if you really care, if you really exist, you'll stop this right now. If not, it just proves we're alone in the universe and that life is meaningless. Or maybe that god and his evil twerp-midgets (humans) are just son-of-a-bitches at heart. You choose!

Peace Love Dope (lots of dope if surround sound survives)
Dan

byteme · « **Reply #14 on:** 10 Sep 2003, 06:23 pm »

I've never jumped in on the "pirating" thing before but WTF, here it goes.

When I was a kid my first ever album was Queen News of the World

followed shortly by every Kiss album I could save my allowance for. My buddies and I would all get together at someones house, bring all our albums and have a sleepover (7th - 8th grade) and tape albums all night, make compliation tapes, etc. When there is only 1-2 songs on a record that are worth having and you're on an allowance or very small income it's tough to afford buying the latest Journey album just for "Stone in Love" or Pick your Hair Metal band for the one radio play song per album

. You HAD to share with your buds. Did this kill record sales? F*CK NO! It exposed us to MORE music and we ended up buying more records as a result, of course taping more too. So it went with CDs as well (although no more sleepovers) all through high school, although VERY few of us had CD players in '84 and it wasn't 'till college that really started. So, now, fast forward 15 years and via the internet I've got a lot more "friends" who are "borrowing" me CDs so I can do the '03 equivalent of taping them, burning them to CD. Since I've started sharing music, true to the paradigm of my youth, I've actually spent MORE on CDs in the last 2 years than in the last 15 years combined. Difference is I'm buying stuff I KNOW I'll like because I've heard a couple of the songs already.

I have no sympathy for the company who refuses to let go of an aging paradigm and is so out of touch with their customer that they refuse to listen and CHOOSE NOT to provide a decent product. They've fleeced us for years and years with me too artists, crap product (see the dynamic range debates re: almost any recent release) and haven't lowered prices on the music since I bought my first CD. Now they want to re-re-re-re-release albums I've already bought on Vinyl, CD, Remastered CD, MFSL CD and finally SACD. And then you have the nerve, not only to blame ME for 700 Million in lost sales but try and prosecute me for your perceived losses? That to me sounds like a final cry for help from someone so clueless that it's damn near a miracle they've been able to remain in business this long... To them I say, kiss my music lovin' ass!

Oh, and I agree absolutely with Hantra about the media. Take them and a majority of the politicians (oh hell, all of them) and give them Antartica but make sure they can't get off.

Carlman · « **Reply #15 on:** 10 Sep 2003, 08:12 pm »

I couldn't agree more with the very succinctly put comments above. I wish it would stand up in court as they take 12-year-old's to jail for 'pirating'. Unfortunately, large corporations thrive on old paradigms because most people are brainwashed into thinking it's the only way. Changing a paradigm, a way of thinking, etc... are all very difficult and I wish I knew what would make it change. My guess is the answer will probably take a long time to actually happen.

I also think SWG's comments were right on the mark:

Quote from: SWG255

"The problem with the music companies is that they care about their product least of all, that is, they care about the music least." ..

I know most large companies view product/service as the means to a profit and have no particular interest in it. Unfortunately, I see this in things that matter... such as pharmaceuticals. Ever see the movie 'Braincandy'...? It's not too far off.

In any case, I hope something changes. I just don't know how.

MaxCast · « **Reply #16 on:** 10 Sep 2003, 09:13 pm »

I don't know if MC is dead or not. I do know that they don't have it right yet. In my limited experience with hi-rez is that new albums recorded for MC are better than the reissues. I prefer the reissues in the hi-rez 2 channel mode.

I certianly don't like how the record companies conduct business. This is a good wake-up call.

I think copying music for distribution is illegal and should be stopped somehow. I do not have the answer and with todays and tomorrow's technology, I don't think there is one unless they use anti-copying encription stuff. There is a difference in downloading a copy to see if you like the music and ripping the latest Metallica album and listening to it over and over. Yes, I did it too. Used to by Maxell and TDK by the box. Most was to use in a car, however. I guess I paid them back by buying the CD's when they came out.