Good Amplification for RM40's..?

kristian85 · « **on:** 4 Sep 2003, 06:12 pm »

I'm about to order a pair of RM40's, which I think will necessitate swapping my beloved Quad 909 (200-240 wpc/4 ohm) for something a wee bit more powerful.

So. I'm a long-time audiophile who has worked in the industry, I've heard it all, both from gear and manufacturers, and I'm therefore what I call an audio realist. No snakeoil for me (i.e., powercables with weird substances in jackets around the cable, etc. etc., or putting gear w/o moving parts on special footers that somehow makes a difference although noone can empirically show why, and so on--in fact, I prefer not to belive in powercables at all given the poor physics behind it). I'm particularly leery of the latest mega-buck component that gets good reviews---you know, the latest $10,000+ speaker (frequently by some uneducated enthusiast who, while well-meaning, merely stuffed some enclosures with off-shelf drivers, and lots of them) that gets good reviews--of course it bloody well better get good reviews--it's maddeningly expensive!

I value neutrality, speed, subtelty, and power, and lean toward Bryston for that reason. I am wary of exclamations of "musicality" as that only equates "colored" to me. I prefer to hear what's on the disc, nothing more or less, but if necessary, erring on the warm side. Frontend is a Sony 333ES changer into an Electrocompaniet ECD-1 DAC. Room size about 16 X 17.5 X 7'2".

Current (pardon) candidates are: Bel Canto EVO4 bridged; Odyssey Stratos Monos; Bryston 4BSST; Carver Professional ZR-series, prolly 1600 (I can imagine two in passive biamped setup...); McCormack DNA500 (longshot--expensive..!); Sunfire; or, keeping my Quad 909, although I suspect the RM40's want a bit more current; or?

Please give your feedback if you've used any of these, or other reasonable (<$3K retail) amps that worked wonders, with RM40's or similar big towers.

John Casler · « **Reply #1 on:** 4 Sep 2003, 07:09 pm »

Hi Kristian,

Although I have not heard "every amp" with the RM40s I can tell you that I would rank the ones I have heard like this:

1) Ampzilla 2000
2) Bryston/Spectron
3) CineNova

I know a few RM40 owners also love their PASS amps, but I haven't heard them enough to place them. I think Marty DeWulf likes the Pass with the RM40s.

The RM40s need lots of current, low distortion, high S/N. and good dampening ratio and Slewing.

While the top 4-5 would probably have the potential to sound very similar with the right tuning and front end equipment, I think it would be hard to go wrong with these.

I would go no less than 300wpc (at 4 ohms) and preferably more.

If you like Bryston, it could be a great choice. One thing I noticed with the Bryston and the RM40 was the "metalic" twang or sheen to the sound of guitar strings that was just uncanny in its realism.

Ampzilla also has this texture. Both the Bryston, Ampzilla and Spectron have "extremely good" woofer control and tight, dry, and deeply layered bass.

As a disclaimer, I might also add that I have been a dealer for CineNova and AMPzilla, and recently also picked up Bryston and Spectron. I try to get the lines I think offer the best value and performance. So take my suggestions on that basis.

Hope that helps.

JackD · « **Reply #2 on:** 4 Sep 2003, 07:53 pm »

Kristian85

Don't know about the RM-40's, but spent several years with the Vandersteen 3A's which also love current. The Stratos mono's sounded great. Another choice is the big Belles 350.

Tyson · « **Reply #3 on:** 4 Sep 2003, 08:04 pm »

I've had the Stratos dual mono amps in the past, and I prefer the Audio by Van Alstine FetValve 550ex amp I have in there now. The hybrid AVA design has no grain at all (giving a smoother yet still very detailed presentation) is more precise sounding, and better controlled bass. Other amps I've heard with the 40's that do a good job as well are the Spectron Musician II and the Parasound JC-1's. Make no mistake, the 40's LOVE power amps with very stout power supplies and a lot of watts (to get the most out of it's dynamic and bass capabilities), and finding an amp that can give you that while still being smooth and resolving enough to keep up with the ribbons transparency is no easy task!

grub · « **Reply #4 on:** 4 Sep 2003, 08:07 pm »

Hey all, let me humbly suggest Aragon amps as a good match with VMPS products. I've had great sucess bi-amping my RM1 neos with 4 channels of my 8008x5. I feel that they're a good solid, neutral amp with lots of reserve power (similar to the Bryston in this respect).

I don't know how the new models sound, but I'd be a little wary since Klipch took over the line. I know they hiked up all the power specs. Aragons were capable of producing way over their rated power a few years back when I got my amp.

I have no idea how the Aragon line of amps stacks up against the ampzillas and the symphonic line stuff, but I think the DAM did some listening, and they might be able to offer some insight.
-->grub

JoshK · « **Reply #5 on:** 4 Sep 2003, 08:14 pm »

Tyson,

You heard the Spectron with the RM40's? What other gear was being used?

Tyson · « **Reply #6 on:** 4 Sep 2003, 09:10 pm »

Josh,
Heard the Spectron in my system, using the AVA T7 pre and the Mensa DIO dac. Sounded very good, but with my room was a little (tiny bit) sterile sounding. On the other hand, the owner of the Spectron has a VERY well treated room, and the Spectron sounded just about perfect in his setup (Selah Audio Excelarray speakers and Accuphase CDP).

Re: Aragon, they are good amps, particularly w/bass and dynamics, but they don't have the smoothness and musicallity of the other 3 amps I mentioned (sorry, don't mean to bash anything, just calling it like I hear it).

Tyson · « **Reply #7 on:** 5 Sep 2003, 12:19 am »

Hi Grub,
Hey, reading my post again, I don't want to sound like I'm picking you or denigrating your amp, not at all! I think that Aragon amps are very good, just that they are a little grainy sounding "in comparison" to some of the very smoothest solid state amps that exist. Hope you don't take my comments as a slight of some type. . .

Kool39 · « **Reply #8 on:** 5 Sep 2003, 12:30 am »

Tyson, I imagine you know exactly what you are talking about and have had extensive listening with the aragon line of amplifiers. My take on the aragon 4004mkII mated with an audible illusions L-1 with 60's NOS Tungsrams is anything but grainy. I have owned lots of gear that would cause fatigue and headaches within minutes but this smoothness i have with this present setup lets me listen for hours on end with no fatigue whatsoever. I speak only for the aragon 4004 mk II since its the only one i have experience with in my listening room.

Just my 2 cents.

Tyson · « **Reply #9 on:** 5 Sep 2003, 01:56 am »

I have had a lot of listening w/the 8008st and 8008bb, but not the 4004, so take my comments with that in mind.

grub · « **Reply #10 on:** 5 Sep 2003, 02:44 am »

Tyson, it's cool....I know what you meant when you posted it, so it's no big deal ; ).

I hear that the 4004 is a more sought after amp than the 8008 series, perhaps the smooth presentation is part of the reason?
-->grub

Kool39 · « **Reply #11 on:** 5 Sep 2003, 03:16 pm »

Grub, I dont really know if it is actually more sought after than the 8008 series. Some think the newer 8008 series is better others like the 4004's. All i know is that even the founder of aragon still uses a 4004 mk II in his 2 channel system over the 8008 series. He is powering martin logans. To bad for him he ought to try out some of Brians VMPS. I have 1993 Tower 2/R's and just love em. You can change the sound so easily with them to your listening preference. Have considered either going with RM 2's or RM 40's but then once i do that i figure i will have to upgrade entire system to get the best performance from them. So at the present i just sit back and enjoy the music.

doug s. · « **Reply #12 on:** 5 Sep 2003, 05:19 pm »

check out electrocompaniet amps - each power level has class-leading current output. even the 70wpc aw220 is rated for >60a current. ec are among the best s/s amps out there, imo.

while i have never experienced them w/vmps ribbons (i *do* have a pair of ec's driving my vmps subs), i do know that jim romeyn also liked a pair of bridged aw220's on the vmps ribbons. while he told me that he thought the ampzillas were better, it wasn't by much, & i tink a lot had to do w/an unpleasant reliability issue he had w/his ec's. which strikes me as amazingly funny - i'd much rather have a "problem" w/an ec product than w/anything jb has ever made. not that jb's stuff has problems, but to say the guy can be difficult to deal with, is well, putting it wery mildly... and, as an owner of ec electronics for ~10 years, i've never gotten anyting but the best support from the factory. (altho i have heard about less-than-satisfactory treatment from the present local distributor.)

fwiw,

doug s.

tkp · « **Reply #13 on:** 5 Sep 2003, 08:13 pm »

"say the guy can be difficult to deal with, is well, putting it wery mildly...

Doug,

I was in the same boat last year when I started to look for amplifier and read quite a bit of JB post at the SAE forum. I almost decided to pass on Ampzilla2K. However, I decided to call JB up and to much of my surprise JB is actually care a lot about his customer.

My pair required longer power cord and the plug has to be right angle to fit my setup. JB did not have any problem with my request and he only charged me the material cost of the extra lenght and a pair of right angle AC plugs. My experience in dealing with JB was very positive which is opposite of how he post at the SAE forum.

I don't have any problem with audio designers being a bit arrogant from time to time (if they are right at the time that they are being a bit arrogant) but I have a real problem when an audio manufacturer steps all over his/her customers for no reason. There was another mono block amp (digital and from an over sea manufacturer) was under my consideration. However, I decided to pass on his amp when I witnessed he ditched on his customers at HD.

audionoob · « **Reply #14 on:** 6 Sep 2003, 12:45 am »

Could someone post the link to JB's SAE forum.

bkwiram · « **Reply #15 on:** 6 Sep 2003, 02:29 am »

I believe it's a Yahoo Group that people are referring to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SAE_Talk/

hope that helps,

Brandt

doug s. · « **Reply #16 on:** 6 Sep 2003, 05:27 am »

hmmm.... mebbe jb yust needs to go to a support group to get him off the yahoo forum habit!

here's where i got turned off to his product:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FMtuners/

seems he's wrong once in a while, as well as arrogant, over there. and yes, there were some interesting tall pointy pyramid speakers i was interested in at one time, but i got turned off by the company's owner...

i don't mind arrogance - take brian cheney, for example.

arrogant as all get-out, but not at all off-putting, imo... he's actually been extremely helpful, to me & others.

doug s.

rblnr · « **Reply #17 on:** 6 Sep 2003, 08:40 am »

I used to use a Bryston, but have replaced it w/a Llano Design tube/ss hybrid amp which I've found to be a step up in many ways. In its price range, I haven't heard anything that betters the Llano.

Some years ago, I extensively auditioned a White Audio amp (earlier SS only incarnation of the Llano) against the Aragon, as well as CJ and Krell amps. W/two different speakers, Epos ES25's and some Wilson's, we all felt that the White took you a little more 'there'.