[knut_the_viking]

Got no responses on the Starting Block forum, so I'm trying again:

I really would like to build out a CI Audio setup with Von Schweikerts (Or the $2,500 alternative Dusty mentioned)

To save some initial money, I was thinking about getting a Oppo CD/CI VDA front end, CI Audio PLC-1 preamp, some yet-to-be-determined used power amp with resale potential, and a pair of Paradigm Studio 20s with stands.

The thinking here is that the poweramp can be sold sooner or later, and that the Paradigms can be used as surrounds or in a secondary system.

I'm planning on moving to D-200 monos as soon as situation allows, possibly move into the next set of speakers even before the amp upgrade.

Help me get my thinking straight here: Am I skimping on the right items at this stage (power amp and speakers). Am I setting myself up for a sound growth path (by starting with good transport+DAC, and good preamp)?

[Meicheng]

For a really good, inexpensive power amp, I'd highly recommend a Rawsonte gainclone amp.  Tim Rawson does a fine job on these and if you can get by with 50 watts a channel (fine for most speakers) these are excellent amps that mate well with a CIA passive preamp.  Tims email is Rawsonte@yahoo.com  You can also occasionally find his amps on Audiogon and Ebay.  Martin. 

[kkc]

As Dusty, says, modern DVD players are very very good when it comes to transports and timing, so I suggest a cheap Philips DVD player and spend on the VDA, D200s and PLC - the heart of the system.  Sooner or later you WILL NEED to sort out cabling (about $500-$600 for interconnects and speaker cables).  Speakers will need to be matched; its easier to do that after buying D200s... not the other way around if your heart is set on the D200s...! 

Besides, another reason for a cheap DVD player is that these are easily upgradeable/replaceable items for instance if you buy an MP3 player that can play lossless formats, then don't be surprised if you feel like dumping the transport all together and just having the portable player line out to the VDA - its so much more convenient. 

Over the last nine months I have built up my complete system and like you I was thinking of buying an expensive transport until I had a chat with Dusty.  I really feel now that expensive transports are passé.  The technology keeps changing and in order to get high density video such as DVD and Blu-ray, the transports and the timing have to be bloody good anyway.  Even the DAC in the Philips DVD player is not bad, so you could use that and upgrade to the VDA later, finances permitting.  To have three different boxes for CD, DVD and soon Blue-ray seems a bit over the top and not particularly good for the environment.

So in summary: D200s and PLC first, use existing sources, speakers next, cables next, VDA/VAC next, lossless format player last is what I would suggest assuming you already have a decent enough DVD player.

[JLM]

IMO you should proceed in this order:

Determine what your musical goals are (genres, what aspects of sound are important, set a budget for now/later).   Until you know the right questions, you'll never get the right answers.  Keep in mind that the only gold standard for true sound is live, unamplified music.  Everything else is colored by mikes, recording techniques, or someone else's playback system.  If you're not already educated to the ways of audio, it can take months/years to learn what good dynamics, deep/musical bass, proper imaging, etc. even sounds like or what the lingo is for each of these.

Shop for speakers (based on anticipated room size now/later, genres, what aspects of sound are important).  Speakers are the most important factor in determining what kind and quality of the sound a system provides.   Outlining the pluses and minuses of different types of speakers could fill an entire circle.  Just to know how to shop for speakers could be another whole thread. 

Then buy amps that synergize with those speakers.   As with speakers, build quality, service, etc. should be considered.  Dusty's old 40 watt VMB-1 monoblocks (gainclones, but better than most) work great with my speakers.

Buy a $150 - 220 Oppo universal player (from Dusty).  As kkc stated, the digital recording/playback technology keeps changing too fast so its very easy to "over invest".  The Oppo can also be used for HT if you move on to something else and has a remote with volume control to make a pre-amp unnecessary until you add a 2nd source.  Check out the reviews.  Build quality is only as good as you'd expect at this price, but it could be obsolute before its worn out anyway.  If you don't mind being reliant on a computer, a Squeeze Box (SB) is another good option for just a bit more.  It has internet radio, volume control, and remote.  Both of these can be modded or have a outboard DAC added.  Again no pre-amp needed.  I'm currently using an Oppo after giving up on a modded SB (too many glitches and not savy enough).  I have a CIA VPC-3, but don't use it as my only source is the Oppo.  Down the road I'd like to add a CIA VDA-2 as the Oppo is just a bit rough on the edges, but I'm in no hurry.

Don't waste serious money on cabling.  Stuff from Element, Signal, or Blue Jean is just fine.  And don't waste money on fancy racks or isolation products.  OTOH the room is the most overlooked factor needed for good sound.  Look for big, private, non-square rooms that are insulated from outside noise.  It's pointless to have any system if you can't listen when you want or can't turn it up (above background noise).  And it's pointless to have a nice system in a small, crowded room that the bass booms in (because its square).

[knut_the_viking]

IMO you should proceed in this order:

Shop for speakers (based on anticipated room size now/later, genres, what aspects of sound are important).  Speakers are the most important factor in determining what kind and quality of the sound a system provides.   Outlining the pluses and minuses of different types of speakers could fill an entire circle.  Just to know how to shop for speakers could be another whole thread. 

Very true, and I'd like to ideally get nice ones right away. Like Von Schweikert VR-2 or VR-4.
Thing is, I'm worried that would take a very large chunk out of my initial budget ($4k or so), and leave very little over for anything else. Budget will trickle in over time, however.
I would be willing to "settle" for a pair of Paradigm 20s in the interim. I've heard them and I rather like them. A set of decent standmount speakers would always be useful. Also, it would free up at least $2k up front.

Then buy amps that synergize with those speakers.   As with speakers, build quality, service, etc. should be considered.  Dusty's old 40 watt VMB-1 monoblocks (gainclones, but better than most) work great with my speakers.

I'm open to almost any amp suggestion. Not ready for tubes yet, however. I was thinking that amps come and go until I end up with a pair of D-200s (or D-201s or whatever the next big thing may be)

Buy a $150 - 220 Oppo universal player (from Dusty).  As kkc stated, the digital recording/playback technology keeps changing too fast so its very easy to "over invest".  The Oppo can also be used for HT if you move on to something else and has a remote with volume control to make a pre-amp unnecessary until you add a 2nd source.  Check out the reviews.  Build quality is only as good as you'd expect at this price, but it could be obsolute before its worn out anyway.  If you don't mind being reliant on a computer, a Squeeze Box (SB) is another good option for just a bit more.  It has internet radio, volume control, and remote.  Both of these can be modded or have a outboard DAC added.  Again no pre-amp needed.  I'm currently using an Oppo after giving up on a modded SB (too many glitches and not savy enough).  I have a CIA VPC-3, but don't use it as my only source is the Oppo.  Down the road I'd like to add a CIA VDA-2 as the Oppo is just a bit rough on the edges, but I'm in no hurry.

This was exactly my thinking. An entry level Oppo is all but a given. Running it as-is may also be an option. I am in fact looking for something that can stream Internet Radio or iTunes library or use a computer based source. The thinking is that with some digital out from the source, a VDA-2 will be VERY useful.

Don't waste serious money on cabling.  Stuff from Element, Signal, or Blue Jean is just fine.  And don't waste money on fancy racks or isolation products.  OTOH the room is the most overlooked factor needed for good sound.  Look for big, private, non-square rooms that are insulated from outside noise.  It's pointless to have any system if you can't listen when you want or can't turn it up (above background noise).  And it's pointless to have a nice system in a small, crowded room that the bass booms in (because its square).

The room is rather large, haven't measured. It's a rectangular shape, high ceiling. It's my main living room, carpet floors. The dining room set is at the back end, behind my main listening chair. Appx size is 18x28 (-ish)

[JLM]

knut,

With budget constraints I'd shop for good small speakers now that you can add a powered subwoofer to later.  Deep bass, 20 - 50 Hz, is very expensive (requires bigger cabinet, bigger driver, and more power than the rest of the frequency range).  The ACI Sapphire XL is a prime example of a very good small speaker and they offer subs to go with them.  There would be no "settling" or future upgrades need with these speakers (other than lack of deep bass), but they cost twice what the Paradigm 20s run.  For something closer in price to the 20s look at the Green Mountain Audio Europa is another killer small speaker ($1000/pair).  Lots of options out there if you go this route.  It allow lets you put off the sub shopping decisions (how big/deep, one versus two, brand, etc.) and defer the associated costs.

Using separate subs requires smaller amps for the speakers as most of the "heavy lifting" would be done by the sub(s).  It also allows for ideal placement of the speakers (for imaging) and sub (for bass) which is virtually never in the same place(s).  Separate sub(s) is typically cheaper than comparable built-in woofers and saves additional money on the amps.  Using CIA as an example, the D-100 would provide more of an abundance of power for the smaller speakers than the D-200 would a large speaker, and save $700.

Frankly I'm with CIA amps because tubes and I didn't "get along".  Unless you've got lots of "real" audio shops around its hard to shop tube amps.  Most I tried were obviously too small or had bloated (poorly dampened) bass (a typical problem with tube amps) with my speakers that are rated in-room down to 30 Hz.  I also had problems with a tubed CD player and a borrowed tubed amp.  Besides, I wasn't crazy about having the sound of the amp changing with time or the type/brand of tube used (rolled).

There are a number of inexpensive ($120 and less) options for bringing internet audio streaming into your audio system if the computer is nearby.  If this isn't the case and your computer savy, I'd recommend looking hard at a $300 Squeeze Box (or SB, a well thought out remote controlled wireless computer/audio system interface).  It would require ripping every CD you listen to (and the necessary hard disk space to store them) but then offers good sound, internet radio, and terrific convenience.  Additional SB(s) can be added throughout the house for other audio/HT systems.  Bolder Cable offers tons of well respected modification options as the itch moves you down the road, see their circle/site below.  As the SB has a remote volume control and does both CD and internet radio, there's little need for a pre-amp.  If all you're doing is spinning CDs even the Oppo (with its remote volume control) would also make a pre-amp completely optional (that's how I'm currently running).  There are even places that will mod the Oppo, check out audiogon.com.

The Odyssey Audio Khartago is a wonderful $750, 75 wpc stereo power amp that would work well with either of these speakers.  Check out the Odyssey circle below.  The website hasn't been updated for years, so you'll have to dog through the threads and search for reviews.  Note that Odyssey offers a 20 year transferable warrantee.

[JLM]

Embarassed to say, but I forgot about a very good deal that is currently running on an excellent speaker right here at AC: VMPS 626 Jr, $975/pair.  These are tall 3-way standmounts that utilitize a ribbon tweeter and a single rather unique extended range (over 6 octaves) ribbon midrange with their constant directivity wave guide.  That midrange ribbon makes for a very conherent, fast sound.  The bigger VMPS speakers use more units to allow for more power handling, but don't image as well (to me at least). 

Brian Chenney (VMPS owner/inventor) is one of those gruff fellows who knows his stuff and does things his way.  He'll never get rich, but is a no nonsense good guy who keeps winning awards at CES.  Come to think of it we have more than our share of eccentric manufacturers here at AC.  I love that!

[knut_the_viking]

Embarassed to say, but I forgot about a very good deal that is currently running on an excellent speaker right here at AC: VMPS 626 Jr, $975/pair.  These are tall 3-way standmounts that utilitize a ribbon tweeter and a single rather unique extended range (over 6 octaves) ribbon midrange with their constant directivity wave guide.  That midrange ribbon makes for a very conherent, fast sound.  The bigger VMPS speakers use more units to allow for more power handling, but don't image as well (to me at least). 

Brian Chenney (VMPS owner/inventor) is one of those gruff fellows who knows his stuff and does things his way.  He'll never get rich, but is a no nonsense good guy who keeps winning awards at CES.  Come to think of it we have more than our share of eccentric manufacturers here at AC.  I love that!

I had no idea these even existed. Thanks for pointing those out. Looks like a definite option, for sure.
Only a little more than a set of Paradigm 20s. Hope stands will be easy to find.

I'll have to start hanging out in the VMPS circle now...