veneer question

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bradbrad

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veneer question
« on: 28 Sep 2007, 07:25 pm »
I know there are tons of veneer questions on this board, but I have one more...

I'm trying to figure out the best thickness and application method to accomodate the 3/4" roundover that I'm applying to my av3s.  I just spoke with a guy at oakwoodveneer.com.  He told me that, with that roundover, I should stay away from their bubble-free style, and stick with the 10 mil.  What do you guys do?

Also, he indicated that unless I can use solvent-based contact cement, that I should use a yellow veneer glue with iron-on method.  He said that water-based contact cement "won't set right".  Does this make any sense?

thanks for the time.

RAW

Re: veneer question
« Reply #1 on: 28 Sep 2007, 08:47 pm »
Send me a email I will give you a few PDF's we have made which are sent with our kits.

Best to use 10,20 or even some 30 can be wrapped around a 3/4" radius but that does not apply to all species.Some species of veneer is very hard to wrap also depends on the backer the veneer is sheeted up on.
You can apply a solvent contact and let the glue dry the same as yellow glue and will have a quicker contact then the yellow glue.
But for iron on I like the glue from Joe Woodworker.
See my link

If you have not seen my post

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=27065.0



Iron On Veneer / PVA Glue Method or Contact cement solvent based


An alternative to using a tack contact cement when traditional press methods aren’t available is this method using white, yellow PVA glue or contact cement and a standard household iron. This process will help you achieve a better glue bond and allows for the use of 10 mil paperbacked or raw veneer which can save you money. Follow these steps for best results.

Surface Preparation
The surface or substrate you are veneering must be clean and flat. MDF, particle board or cabinet grade plywood are all satisfactory substrates. If applying veneer over a hardwood substrate, be sure all finish is removed and repair any gouges or scratches that might telegraph through the new veneer. It is not advisable to veneer over old veneer as the heat and moisture generated in this process may actually cause the old veneer to delaminate.

Glue Application
You can use either white glue, yellow woodworking glue or solvent contact cement. It is recommended when you use yellow woodworking glue to thin it with 10% water to allow easier spreading as it can be very thick. With a brush or roller coat the back of the veneer and the substrate with glue. If you are rolling the glue a foam roller applicator works well but not for the contact cement. You may have to find a roller from a paint supply store which is designed for contact cement use. In almost all cases you should apply two coats of glue to the substrate because some of the first coat will soak into the surface. Be very careful not to get any glue on the face of the veneer as this will surely be a problem during the finishing process. Once applied, allow the glue to dry to the touch. The contact cement will probably dry quicker but as a general rule, wait 20 to 30 minutes. An important thing to remember is to apply even, thin coats of glue. Generally speaking, you want to end up with approximately 6 to 8 mils ( 1 mil = 1/1000” ) of glue thickness.

Ironing Veneer to Substrate
Make sure your glue on the veneer and cabinet or other surface is dye not tacky but 100% dry. The glue must be 100% dry on both surfaces for this method of applying veneer with a iron on method to work. Place the veneer on the substrate and position the grain direction accordingly. Unlike WET contact cement which bonds on contact, the veneer can be allowed to make contact with the substrate while positioning the veneer. If you use contact cement solvent based, let the contact dry 100% the same as white or yellow glue. This method will work with all three glues if the glues are dry 100%. Use a lightweight cotton material between the veneer and the face of the iron. An old bed sheet or cotton t-shirt work well for this purpose. With your iron set on a high heat setting, begin to iron the veneer from the center out using a slow and deliberate pace. The cloth should prevent the hot iron from scorching the face of the veneer. Keep moderate downward pressure on the iron as you move it across the surface. Make sure you have covered every square inch of surface and examine the veneer for any loose spots that may not be bonded. If there are any areas that appear as though they aren’t bonded to the substrate, just go back over them with the iron. Allow this assembly to cool for 2 hours before trimming the veneer to finished size. Allow 24 hours for glue to fully cure before doing any finishing.

Finishing Veneer:
Veneer can be finished just like any hardwood. The first step is proper sanding starting with a medium grit paper followed by a fine grit paper. This can be done with an electric sander if you are confident enough or by hand if you are not. Remove all sanding residue with a brush or tack cloth. From this point you can either stain the wood or finish with a clear finish.


Cacophonix

Re: veneer question
« Reply #2 on: 28 Sep 2007, 10:39 pm »
Hi Al,

Instead of PMing u , i thought i'll ask here so that others might also benefit from your knowledge-

I too am trying to apply veneer on OB5, and am concerned about one thing.

I'll be using yellow PVA glue on raw veneer .... so i'm quite sure that there will be some glue bleeding through the veneer. Is there some way one can figure out where all the glue has bled through - so that we can sand that part?

Thanks!

RAW

Re: veneer question
« Reply #3 on: 29 Sep 2007, 12:09 am »
one way to seal the raw veneer is with a light coat of a spray can shelac.
If you lightly spray on a coat on the back side of the veneer this will seal the veneer.BUT the thicker you apply the coat of Shelac the more chance you have of it bleeding into the front of the veneer.
Light coats 2 ,I would say is enough and then just lightly sand the backside of the veneer (the side you just sealed) to make it smooth.

Works great.
The spray can's Home Depot sells for sure.
 

Daygloworange

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Re: veneer question
« Reply #4 on: 29 Sep 2007, 12:58 am »
I'll be using yellow PVA glue on raw veneer .... so i'm quite sure that there will be some glue bleeding through the veneer. Is there some way one can figure out where all the glue has bled through - so that we can sand that part?

Yup. You can wipe the veneer down with acetone(or lacquer thinner)after you've glued it. The acetone will darken the veneer while it's wet. Where there is glue bleeding through it will become visible. The acetone will not soak into the veneer in the areas that are saturated with glue.

When you can wipe the veneer with a good wet coat of acetone and not have any spots that stay undarkened from the wetting, you're good to go.  :thumb:

BTW, the acetone will not affect the PVA glue.

Cheers


I'm trying to figure out the best thickness and application method to accomodate the 3/4" roundover that I'm applying to my av3s.  I just spoke with a guy at oakwoodveneer.com.  He told me that, with that roundover, I should stay away from their bubble-free style, and stick with the 10 mil.  What do you guys do?

Also, he indicated that unless I can use solvent-based contact cement, that I should use a yellow veneer glue with iron-on method.  He said that water-based contact cement "won't set right".  Does this make any sense?

A 3/4" roundover is a large radius. We usually use the 10 mil paperback, but I'm thinking you might be able to wrap that with the heavier 20 mil veneer. I've wrapped 10 mil paperback around 3/8" roundover (it ain't easy, and I wouldn't recommend trying it), but it can be done.

As far as waterbased contact cement goes, I have heard similar stories, but I don't have any hands on experience with it.

I would recommend sticking with the 10 mil veneer if you can.

Good luck.  :thumb:

Cheers

Hank

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Re: veneer question
« Reply #5 on: 1 Oct 2007, 12:52 am »
Brad, I'v used 10-mil paper-backed veneer for several years with good success.  My preferred glue is contact cement - best results to-date.
On page 2 of this site are the first AV-3 design version with 3/4" roundover front vertical corners.  Page 3 is the current version without roundovers:
http://www.geocities.com/hankbond1/index
Almost every speaker I've built has the front vertical corners rounded over with a 3/4" radius router bit, and no problems with veneer application.

slksc

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Re: veneer question
« Reply #6 on: 1 Oct 2007, 04:17 pm »
I'm trying to figure out the best thickness and application method to accomodate the 3/4" roundover that I'm applying to my av3s.  I just spoke with a guy at oakwoodveneer.com.  He told me that, with that roundover, I should stay away from their bubble-free style, and stick with the 10 mil. 

Well, the guy from oakwood should know his own product, but I used their bubble-free veneer on a 3/4" roundover on my AV-3's, and it worked quite well.  I used three coats of contact cement (with good ventilation) on each surface, and I used the weight of the AV-3 cabinet to ensure a solid bond on the rounded corners.  I used a homemade roller to press the veneeer against the sides.