[Daryl]

I just looked up the anti-cables site.

Talk about a bum steer.

$10 for 4 feet of magnet wire? (stereo sets for $10 per foot)

Magnet wire is going to be unwieldly and unattractive as well as fragile (don't bend it too many times or scrape too much insulation off).

Insulation and proximity of carpet of course has no bearing upon speaker wires.

I built my wires with this wire from Parts Express...


http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=100-491

And terminated it like this (the wire is 8 conductor so I combined them 4+4 for a two conductor cable and speacially processed the ends to make big copper pins protruding from the end)...



It measures like this...




Vertical scale is milliohms and not Ohms.

Resistance is three times lower and inductance is six times lower compared to anti-cables.

It looks great (single big black garden hose).

It is designed for heavy duty professional use.

It is very flexible despite it's size and lays flat even after it has been coiled.


 

[DaveC113]

Daryl,

A bum steer huh.... and I guess your stranded wire is going to sound better?  Sorry, buddy... in most systems it won't. I really don't care how your wire measures, blah, blah, blah. For folks who are interested in how it actually sounds, your wire is a nightmare come true. You're better off with 12g Romex. But, (from your other posts) I know you're most interested in the numbers. To each his own, but most here on AC do not seem to share your view, which I guess is why you find it necessary to resort to ad-hominem attacks and degrading others viewpoints.

The inductance of Anti-Cable wire is a function of the distance between the conductors. A set of Anti-Cable wires that are twisted together will have a lower inductance than your wire because the insulation is thinner. Anyhow, there is no "ideal" inductance for speaker cable anyway, because the end result is subjective.

Then, "resistance is 3x lower than Anti-Cables"... duh, 12g vs 4 strands of 13g. Of course the resistance is lower. Does it matter in any reasonable sized run? Of course not. 

I won't even go into the fact that you think that Dayton wire looks good 

I'll re-iterate that the Anti-cable is WELL worth $1.25/ft, which by my math comes out to $20 for a 4' set. I know thats horribly overpriced  Magnet wire comes in many formulations of both conductor and insulation, paying Paul Speltz a little extra to do the R&D for you seems like a small price to pay. I have noticed Magnet wire is always a compromise between gauges, the anti-cable does not negatively affect the higher frequencies like most larger gauge magnet wire does. I would recommend that if you get some random magnet wire that you use at least 2 gauges (say, 12 and 20) to try to minimize this issue.

Dave
   

[Daryl]

Hi Dave,

Not shure what 'Ad-Hominem' means (guessing some sort of compliment).

Your'e right it's all about the numbers for me, I'm no idoliter.

The thinner insulation of magnet wire allows the conductors closer together which reduces inductance however the rated inductance for the Anti-Cables is 1.5 times higher than that of stranded zip cord (0.3uh vs. 0.2uh).

My wires inductance is 6 times less (0.05uh) than the twisted Anti-Cables but only 4 times less than the stranded zip cord.

The solid core wire suffers greater skin effect.

I would agree that the Anti-Cables cost much less than much of the other stuff out there but it's still overpriced and underperforming (by the numbers).

[DanTheMan]

would agree that the Anti-Cables cost much less than much of the other stuff out there but it's still overpriced and underperforming (by the numbers).

I'd have a listen to the anticables before you knock them.  I've never heard them, but the numbers aren't everything.

Can you spare the time to take a listen?

Dan

[Freo-1]

would agree that the Anti-Cables cost much less than much of the other stuff out there but it's still overpriced and underperforming (by the numbers).

I'd have a listen to the anticables before you knock them.  I've never heard them, but the numbers aren't everything.

Can you spare the time to take a listen?

Dan

No, but numbers do mean a lot (especially with cables) The idea is for the cable to provide as little resistance, capacitance, and inductance as possible between the source and destination.

The area of cables is the most controversial in audio, and is filled with snake oil salesman and alchemists.     

[markC]

Do Ya Think? Are we going down this slippery dead end road Again?

[Freo-1]

Do Ya Think? Are we going down this slippery dead end road Again?

Hopefully not. 

Cable issues are limited to their XLR values in circuit, and NO creditable evidence is available by anyone to support all the wild claims made by cable manufactures.

It truly is a cash cow, and the one area in audio where "The Emperor's New Clothes" tale we all were taught as a child applies.

[DaveC113]

Are we going down this slippery dead end road Again?

This was part of another thread, where the OP asked about Anti-Cable wire, and I suggested buying it from the Anti-Cable site for $1.25/ft.

I don't feel the need to continue the discussion, but go right ahead if you wish  

Dave

[Freo-1]

Are we going down this slippery dead end road Again?

This was part of another thread, where the OP asked about Anti-Cable wire, and I suggested buying it from the Anti-Cable site for $1.25/ft.

I don't feel the need to continue the discussion, but go right ahead if you wish 

Dave

Well, at 1.25 a ft. it will not break the bank.  So, if one is so inclined, give it a go.

[DanTheMan]

No, but numbers do mean a lot (especially with cables) The idea is for the cable to provide as little resistance, capacitance, and inductance as possible between the source and destination.

I totally agree.  They just aren't everything.  I have just yet to hear a stranded wire that sounds as good as a solid one.  I have no way to measure the difference.  I just replaced a 2 ft long stranded wire with a five foot long solid one of smaller AWG.  They are both of star quad geometry and of the same dielectric and wire purity, so capacitance and inductance are probably similar per foot, but the smaller one will have a higher resistance.  The Smaller one easily bests the larger one in terms of detail, it doesn't seem any quieter and it doesn't seem to suppress dynamics.  The only thing I can conclude about this is that unstranded distorts the details less.  So please just listen before making a judgement.  Seems reasonable enough to me.

And yes, this is a slipperly slope that no one can ever seem to get beyond.  There seems to be 2 camps here.  One that prefers to just listen, and one that prefers to measure as to make sure they are not falling for some BS.  Unfortunately the later is due to some pretty hoaky advertising by undustry giants used to explain their rediculous pricing that just don't pan out in the real world.  You can't blame people for being POed.  On the other hand, I guess I still wonder why we might exclude our own ears and minds and prefer to look at a meter to tell us what sounds better.  It seems strange to me--to decide which sounds better by having a machine measure it's parameters.

[Freo-1]

No, but numbers do mean a lot (especially with cables) The idea is for the cable to provide as little resistance, capacitance, and inductance as possible between the source and destination.

I totally agree.  They just aren't everything.  I have just yet to hear a stranded wire that sounds as good as a solid one.  I have no way to measure the difference.  I just replaced a 2 ft long stranded wire with a five foot long solid one of smaller AWG.  They are both of star quad geometry and of the same dielectric and wire purity, so capacitance and inductance are probably similar per foot, but the smaller one will have a higher resistance.  The Smaller one easily bests the larger one in terms of detail, it doesn't seem any quieter and it doesn't seem to suppress dynamics.  The only thing I can conclude about this is that unstranded distorts the details less.  So please just listen before making a judgement.  Seems reasonable enough to me.

And yes, this is a slipperly slope that no one can ever seem to get beyond.  There seems to be 2 camps here.  One that prefers to just listen, and one that prefers to measure as to make sure they are not falling for some BS.  Unfortunately the later is due to some pretty hoaky advertising by undustry giants used to explain their rediculous pricing that just don't pan out in the real world.  You can't blame people for being POed.  On the other hand, I guess I still wonder why we might exclude our own ears and minds and prefer to look at a meter to tell us what sounds better.  It seems strange to me--to decide which sounds better by having a machine measure it's parameters.

Hopefully, the meters get you in the ballpark, and from there, one decides based on how it works in their system.

You hit the nail on the head. Because there is so much alchemy with this topic, it's hard to get past it all to work out what is best. As a dedicated tube amp kind of guy, I get the fact that similar items (the same tube type from different manufactures) can and do sound different.

It's just so much more difficult with cables, one gets to the point where you stop with all the hype, and rely on engineering to get that issue resolved.

Personally, I would love to try silver interconnects and speaker wire, but I can't justify the cost based on "the numbers" and past listening experience. 

[markC]

Are we going down this slippery dead end road Again?

This was part of another thread, where the OP asked about Anti-Cable wire, and I suggested buying it from the Anti-Cable site for $1.25/ft.

I don't feel the need to continue the discussion, but go right ahead if you wish  

Dave

Hey, don't get me wrong. I'm all for trying new and inexpensive cables. In fact, all of my cables are diy except for one power cord.
I prefer my speak cables over  a few commercial brands, in fact. I'm not talking high dollar ones, mind you, but still, the homebrews are like 10%-25% the price.

[markC]

Personally, I would love to try silver interconnects and speaker wire, but I can't justify the cost based on "the numbers" and past listening experience.   


It really doesn't cost that much to try silver ic's. Check out Chris V's "fine silver interconnects". Depending on the termination you choose, probably about $75 a pair.

Speak cable is another story, as you need the current capability, therefore heavier gauge. I too would like to try silver, but that is out until I have quite a bit more disposable income.

[Occam]

Do Ya Think? Are we going down this slippery dead end road Again?

Hopefully not. 

Cable issues are limited to their XLR values in circuit, and NO creditable evidence is available by anyone to support all the wild claims made by cable manufactures.

It truly is a cash cow, and the one area in audio where "The Emperor's New Clothes" tale we all were taught as a child applies.

Be that as it may, I'm telling you and ANYONE ELSE, as the facilitator of the Lab Circle, I DON'T CARE! and it simply DOES NOT BELONG IN THE LAB CIRCLE. This is the descriptor of what is to take place in the Lab Circle -

The technical side of audio. How and why our equipment works, construction, and DIY.

Mount your soapbox elsewhere, in any other circle but this one.  If you want to discuss technical issues, objective  measures, subjective perceptions, and/or DIY please feel free to discuss it here. If you want a technical discussion disputing some vendor's claim, fine... but if I want to hear whinging, I'll visit another circle. Otherwise, take care that the door doesn't hit you on the way out.

Warmest regards,
Paul aka Occam, facilitator of the Lab Circle.

PS - This is exactly why I split this thread from the parent thread that was simple innocuous question as to where to procure magnet wire for a specific use. I don't need this drama and contention. My house, my rules.

PPS - Response Audio, no disagreement, but please don't wag your finger hereabouts.

[Bill Baker]

Sorry Occam. I'll remove it now. I didn't realize where this thread was located. No harm intended.

[jkelly]

Folks looking for high performance low cost cables might want to
give this a try and report back:

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/whitelightning/moonshine.html

Jeff

[DaveC113]

Personally, I would love to try silver interconnects and speaker wire, but I can't justify the cost based on "the numbers" and past listening experience. 

These cost about $12/pair to make (the pics of my IC are on the last page):

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=41863.0

I have compared them to a few other cables, including actual Anti-Cable ICs with Eichmanns, and they compare very favorably. Since I made them I don't want to make any judgements, but the major difference was in the conductor material. For the cash, you could afford to make a Cu and an Ag set and compare them. Jupiter charges $1/ft for 28g Cu, $2.50 for Ag. I think the preference for one over the other varies a lot from person to person, and is also very system dependant.

Silver speaker wire isn't in the budget. 

Dave

[markC]

Personally, I would love to try silver interconnects and speaker wire, but I can't justify the cost based on "the numbers" and past listening experience. 

 

Silver speaker wire isn't in the budget. 

Dave

Yea, same here, I'd like to try it. Perhaps we should find a "no cost" trial period vendor.