[BrianM]

The problem with the Merlins is they are very revealing of everything up stream from them.

Which incidentally is exactly the "problem" you want to have with a speaker system. I would steer anyone clear of the advice that you need to address this "problem" by swapping them out for something fuzzier.  Then you're just piling up crud.  (I don't have an opinion about them, or your components, just going on what others are saying.  But I've heard only good things about Merlins...)

"Forgiving" speakers can sound nice depending on what's driving them.  But a system only sounds great when the speakers are unforgiving and the electronics don't require much forgiveness.

Once you have the system where you want it and treatments in place try some different  amps and pre-amps. See what you come up with. This is the fun part.

Or not, depending on whether the new placement clears things up! 

[yo2tup]

BrianM,

You missed the two sentance before the first one you quoted. 

What I can say is this the digital amps I have heard on the Merlins, and other speakers  sounded flat and two dimensional to me . They also sounded confused with music that was very complex.  The problem with the Merlins is they are very revealing of everything up stream from them.

He wasn't saying revealing speakers are a bad thing.  He was pointing out that digital amps, like his nuforce, can sound flat, 2D, and confused with revealing speakers like merlin.  which i agree with.

[hartwerger]

I just saw the specs for your Nuforce amp and it has an extremely high damping factor.  As you may already know, if you've had contact with Merlin, highly damped amplifiers are not a good match for the Merlin speakers.   Merlin speakers are already damped and tend to be more combatible with amps that have lower feedback and damping factors.   Generally, such a mismatch will result in a weak bass response, but I imagine it could also cause your midrange to be less fleshed out, hence, causing them to sound clinical.   This is certainly not a "one size fits all" rule and I don't have any experience with Nuforce amps so I can't say that this is a factor.  But, I did have the Ice H2O digital amp at one time which also has a high damping factor.  While the H2O sounded great on my Maggies, it did not do justice to the Merlins.   I only had the H2O for a very brief time when I first got my Merlins, and although the word "clinical" doesn't come immediately into my memory, I do recall a thin sounding presentation that wasn't as tonally full and rich as other amps I've paired with the Merlins that were more combatible for the reasons mentioned.   If rearranging the placement of your speakers does not provide the fix you're looking for, you should at least try to borrow a more combatible amp (if possible) to hear the difference.   No one wants to hear that one's amp is not the best match for the speakers you have, but if you contact Merlin, I am almost certain this is one of the first things they will want you to consider.  Lastly, I agree with most of Sturgus' post.  I may not have emphasised it enough in my own previous post, but your speakers are to close to the front wall; you need to get them out further to acheive the best stage and tonal accuracy, at least that has been my experience.  Hope this helps.

[Toka]

NuForce amps are not digital! And I agree with those that look to speaker placement/room treatment first...randomly swapping gear might work eventually, but you may end up solving one problem with another problem.

[WEEZ]

I only have the 'baby' Merlins (TSM); but the rules that apply to the small Merlin and the large Merlin are the same.

1) Proper positioning in the room. (holds true for all speakers, actually) Give 'em breathing room.
2) Amplifiers with less damping/higher output impedence. You're not trying to control a 'big' woofer here; and like was mentioned previously... Merlins are highly damped in and of themselves (and have a high and benign impedence with low phase angle)

Messing with different tubes ain't the answer.

WEEZ

[hartwerger]

I understand the Nuforce is a different topology than digital amps.  I was not trying to put the Nuforce in that class, but it does have an exceptionally high damping factor and the only other amp that I've actually heard with a high damping factor happened to be the Ice H2O.  After having many contacts with Merlin Music I personally know that they would encourage an amp with a much lower damping factor to be paired with their speakers.  I wasn't trying to make a comparison between the Nuforce and the H2O per se, but rather share my own experience with an amp that I've heard that had such a high damping factor.  I have not heard the Nuforce and for all I know it may be a mighty fine amp for the Merlins, but pairing a well damped speaker with a highly damped amp could qutie possibly present a sound that is tonally thin and be perceived as clinical.   I'm not saying that is what is happening here; it is merely food for thought.  I agree that speaker placement should be considered first.  Proper speaker placement for one's room is essential.

[Toka]

hartwerger,

Thanks for the info, especially on the Merlins. A few people made reference to the NuForce's being digital, so I apologize if my post's positioning made it look like I was singling you out. Not my intention at all!

Of course, if Merlins do not like amps with a high damping factor, that would certainly make NuForce's a less than ideal match, on paper anyway. Merlin owners, feel free to chime in!

[BrianM]

BrianM,

You missed the two sentance before the first one you quoted. 

What I can say is this the digital amps I have heard on the Merlins, and other speakers  sounded flat and two dimensional to me . They also sounded confused with music that was very complex.  The problem with the Merlins is they are very revealing of everything up stream from them.

He wasn't saying revealing speakers are a bad thing.  He was pointing out that digital amps, like his nuforce, can sound flat, 2D, and confused with revealing speakers like merlin.  which i agree with.

Nope, didn't miss them. I know he didn't say revealing speakers were bad, but someone else referred to them as "unforgiving" which can be taken negatively, and suggestions were made to try different speakers.  Referring to revealing speakers as a "problem" can be taken negatively, too.  This is nitpicking, but I think some people, present company no doubt excluded, find themselves unwittingly shying away from high fidelity in a given component because it shows up weaknesses in other components. A revealing speaker may seem unforgiving or even harsh...and from my point of view the result of trying to compensate for it is often lower fidelity. "Try this higher distortion toob!"  Like I said, I don't have an opinion on Nuforce amps, and have no reason to doubt you.

[WEEZ]

It's more than just damping factor/output impedence too....

Mike's issue is speaker positioning. He would have the same issue with many speakers based on his description of the placement in his room..

An amp that matches his speakers better would be icing on the cake.

WEEZ

[mcullinan]

Well, Thanks for all the help. First I cant move them off the long wall. Their is a fireplace on one short wall (That takes up the whole wall) and the other is the entrance walkway. So its an imperfect setup..  The Merlins are ported in the front , so what I did was push them up against (almost) the back wall. This seems to have helped the mids to highs out a lot... Now the lows seem to be exaggerated a little, even though the port in in the front. Maybe some Wall treatments??
These are two way speakers.. could they be too big for the room? idk. They do sound a lot better back a bit, except for the bottom end. Their is a lot of damping, big cushy couches, curtains, rug...
 I think that the Merlins are very revealing which is good and bad.. I know what recordings are not so good, and which are excellent. The good ones sound great, the bad, their is no forgiveness there. Maybe I should have a smoothing component?
Now what?
Mike

[hartwerger]

Toka:  No problem.  I didn't interpret your post as contentious at all.  You're absolutely right that Nuforce is often confused with digital amps.  I've been multi-tasking while posting and should have been more clear in my initial post myself that I was trying to bring my own personal experience to the discussion and not really compare the two amps.  There has actually been many good and valid by everyone in this discussion.  I still consider myself a beginner in many ways and try to learn from everyone.   No harm done, I hope.

[Scott F.]

I was the one that said Merlins are unforgiving. Trust me, that wasn't a slam. Merlins are a top shelf speaker in my book. You just need the proper electronics upstream of them so make them sound their best. It's all about synergy.

The Merlins are ported in the front , so what I did was push them up against (almost) the back wall. This seems to have helped the mids to highs out a lot... Now the lows seem to be exaggerated a little, even though the port in in the front. Maybe some Wall treatments??

That would be a good place to start. Maybe Bryan, Glenn or Ethan can chime in hear to give you specifics.

The one thing I'm not sure about is if the BAM module might be able to notch some of the bass peaks out of what you are hearing. Merlin owners? anybody?

Maybe I should have a smoothing component?
Now what?

If it were me, I wouldn't. Adding something to smooth the sound of your existing system is only acting as a bandaid. If you are going to invest in something, I'd take a long hard look at which you value more, the Merlins or the Nuforce, then pay aGon or eBay a visit.....but thats just me.

[macrojack]

Guess if you can't change the set-up, you might want to change the speakers or just pass on the recordings that sound bad to you. Send them to my house where they won't be able to bother you.

I've never owned Merlins but I know they have pretty small drivers. Is it possible that they simply can't handle what you are asking them to do? I mean, isn't diaphragm surface area a factor in moving sufficient air for high volume complex reproduction? Wouldn't greater excursion compromise transient speed of the cone?

Can you borrow an amp that might disprove or prove the theory about NuForce being the wrong amplifier?

Better send the recordings anyway -- just to be safe.

[WEEZ]

Scott...you just gave me an idea...

Mike...try using the speakers without the BAM and report back...

WEEZ

[doug s.]

Well, Thanks for all the help. First I cant move them off the long wall. Their is a fireplace on one short wall (That takes up the whole wall) and the other is the entrance walkway. So its an imperfect setup..  The Merlins are ported in the front , so what I did was push them up against (almost) the back wall. This seems to have helped the mids to highs out a lot... Now the lows seem to be exaggerated a little, even though the port in in the front. Maybe some Wall treatments??
These are two way speakers.. could they be too big for the room? idk. They do sound a lot better back a bit, except for the bottom end. Their is a lot of damping, big cushy couches, curtains, rug...
 I think that the Merlins are very revealing which is good and bad.. I know what recordings are not so good, and which are excellent. The good ones sound great, the bad, their is no forgiveness there. Maybe I should have a smoothing component?
Now what?
Mike

i would give up the fireplace & set the speakers up a few feet in front of that wall.  i suspect that you will have similare issues regardless of what speakers or gear you use.  setting speakers up  on the long wall of a 12x17 room yust isn't conducive to getting the best sound out of a system.   even if you cannot do this as a long term solution, it would be a good idea to do it temporarily - it will more clearly give you an idea of what system synergy issues you have - if any...  only then, would i start inwestigating other gear, starting w/speakers that may be more forgiving of your room constraints.  and, this is from a tube guy, that wouldn't wanna be running anything but tubed amplification/preamplification.

after the room re-arranging experiment, the room treatment suggestions are what i would be doing 1st, even before checking out new speakers.  sound absorption on the wall behind the listening seat would be the first thing i would do, w/your present set-up.  next, would be sound absorption directly behind the speakers, if they have to be so close to the wall.  i suspect that sound absorption behind the listening position & behind the speakers will be necessary, regardless of what speakers & gear you have, if you insist on having the speakers on the long wall.  if you can sacrifice the fireplace & put the speakers on that wall, then you would likely benefit from sound absorption on the long walls, at the speaker's 1st reflection points to the listening position...

another option would be room eq, w/something like a deqx, (or behringer, for less $$$), which will help smooth out the frequency aberrations.  but, i would still do the room treatments first, to relieve the eq of having to do as much work...

doug s.

[bpape]

If they must sit on that wall and going closer helped the mids and highs at the expense of the bottom end, then kill the $hit out of the front wall behind and directly around the Merlins.

Also, sorry if I started a war with the tubes.  I was merely trying to point out an option that would allow keeping the existing equipment.  I'll fully agree that IMO the NuForces and Merlins are not a good match.  I was trying to point out a more 'politically correct' solution.

Bryan

[mcullinan]

If they must sit on that wall and going closer helped the mids and highs at the expense of the bottom end, then kill the $hit out of the front wall behind and directly around the Merlins.

Ill try this though I am now muzzled (miffed and puzzled) I think the next thing to do is to get a loaner amp (tube or SS??) and see if the Nuforces are responsible. I always wanted a musical system that was revealing, but perhaps I went too far on the revealing side.

Something went sour in my system, maybe I went sour on it.... lol! Anyways I think its going to take some patience and your (all) help, btw thanks..  to swap components in/out plus treatments to get me a happy sound.

It is a smaller room.. and the layout is far from perfect.. but its NY where space is at a premium...
Thnx again all.
Mike

[mca]

I think the next thing to do is to get a loaner amp (tube or SS??)

As others have mentioned, I think a tube amp would do wonders with your system. 

[TheChairGuy]

Mike/mccullinan,

Go get a good TT, a record cleaning machine, and 200 albums...problem likely and largely fixed (other issues implemented, but they are largely small in comparison if everything is cleaned up and cleaned smartly). CD standards not good enough to approximate music and as you've raised the bar in your system, it becomes all the more noticeable.

Or, go get a DVD/DVD-A player and as many DVD-A's of music not originally recorded at 44.1 (analog masters and the few specific 24/192 recordings that are out there).  Problem likely fixed - and may well be less pricey, and less hassle, than above option for vinyl if you are not inclined.

And/ or, add some euphonic color in the form of tubes....furthest back of the amplification chain nearest to your speakers seems most beneficial I've found (assuming your speakers are easy loads).  It makes CD far more enjoyable...doesn't do much for DVD-A or vinyl (less coloring needed for these better music technologies)   

John / monoblock tube amp owner

[mcullinan]

OK, so far this is what I did....
Let me describe the room a bit more. Granted it is on the smaller side 12 x 17... Their is wall to wall carpet, 2 Oversized fabric couches, floor to window top drapes on 3 windows and the ceiling is vaulted.

I had the speakers directly forward as per Bobbys suggestion. (I think this caused reflections in sound back onto the speakers) Then I had them angled out a bit(Which made me feel there was a detachment between highs and lows, plus reflections off a stone fireplace (full wall of stone on short wall).

Now I have moved them forward into the room and angled them in, they sound MUCH better. And they are not too bright as I thought they might be on axis. I also thing that the reflections are much less, the way one speaker is angled takes the sound out into another room, the other may need some work.

Now I need to get corner treatments for the bass.
Mike
Thnks x 2 to all