[TheChairGuy]

First comment/question: does anyone have a manual for this cartridge?  I am looking for, specifically, it's Inductance and DC resistance...two figures Grado offers up as standard.

I bought one of these recently (mint condition in box - based on playback, which is etched and sibilant, I'm guessing it was never used much or at all - it sounds much the same as the Green did in it's first 25 hours) on ebay to see the effect of stylus profile (and quality, likely) versus the current Prestige series.

At first, I swapped G1+ Shibata stylus (as I awaited new headshells via mail to install)...out with the assemblies in the Green. The high frequency content has much more of that vaunted extension and air that us vinyl-phools crave.

I took an old, beat up Angel Records disc of 'Wagner Overtures', with a known 'skip' part, and the new stylus glided right past it now   Bettering tracking performance, in and of itself, can't ever be a bad thing.

The cantilever mass is considerably less...I had to re-balance my arm with about 0.5 gram less counterweight balance (it's still set at 1.5 downforce when balanced...only the arm required less counterweight to balance the arm). It kinda' points out how poor the Grado Black/Green cantilever really is...and how much more performance the lowly Prestige series can eek out with upgrade to the stylus.

Len Gregory, aka the Cartridge Man, must laugh a green streak to his local HSBC bank every time he takes a 50 quid (his UK wholesale cost as a dealer) Grado Silver and applies a 50 quid line stylus and probably an hour of his time to it and sends it out the door for 250-500+ pounds (wholesale-retail prices). The cartridge (line) does many things well bone stock...but begs for a higher quality tip/cantilever, it seems 

Grado chief engineer John Chiapas recently told me the Green is 90% of the way there for music...what he didn't tell me is that much of the rest of the way is changing out the stylus assembly for a more hyperelliptical shape.

fyi - you now need to spend $1200 in the Grado line to get an ellipsoid stylus (nee, Shibata)

A very interesting and substantive $59 discovery this was, indeed 

[Keith F.]

Hi chairguy,

I can find no info on this cartridge. I have tried to get info on several grado models including the zf3e+, f1+,zf1+, etc. to try to compare to the current prestige series. There is very little info on any of the past cartridges, as You probably have also discovered.

About 10 yrs. ago, I bought the longhorn z from Frank. It was the zf3e+ cartridge. A few yrs. ago, I thought it was about time to replace the stylus so I called Frank. He suggested I just get a whole new longhorn z, and I would have but I said it took so long to install and set up on the thorens 318mk3 (does not have removeable headshell) so I just wanted the stylus replacement. He had grado greens at the time so I got one. This is what started my experiments and trials with different stylus's.

I noticed that the green didn't sound the same. There was somewhat of a harshness to it. I then called up needle doctor and they had an original zf3e+ stylus. The sound was restored. No more harshness.

I have recently bought several new cartridges to try including the AT 440MLa and the Denon high output DL-160 moving coil.

I really do think that both of these carts. have better needles than the grado. BUT I keep going back to the old grado because to me it is more natural sounding.

Put the AT 440MLa in a Marantz 6350q and it does well. The Denon DL-160 is more transparent in the highs than the grado but just does not have that coherency in the mids.

Your discovery of that g1+ with the shibata tip is very interesting, indeed. Sure wish they still made them.

By the way, I did the longhorn mod to the gold cart. and it's ok but still not quite what the zf3e+ is.
Don't think they put as good of stylus's in there prestige series anymore, either.

By the way, many thankyou's for the tips on damping.

Keith

[Psychicanimal]

Grado chief engineer John Chiapas recently told me the Green is 90% of the way there for music...what he didn't tell me is that much of the rest of the way is changing out the stylus assembly for a more hyperelliptical shape.

fyi - you now need to spend $1200 in the Grado line to get an ellipsoid stylus (nee, Shibata)

A very interesting and substantive $59 discovery this was, indeed 

That's exactly why KAB's modded Groovmaster kicks some serious ass!  It's an integrated headshell DJ cartridge with a NOS Stereohedron stylus!

I ordered the last two NOS Super Stereohedron Kevin had available and they're going to a NOS Tracmaster I I found in eBay.  THe 1st iteration has half the coil windings and an impedance of 400 Ohms and more extended HF response than the Groovemaster.  Do I need anything 'better' ? 

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[TheChairGuy]

Keith
I still cannot find info on the G1+ inductance and DC resistance, but I believe both to be lower than the current Prestige line as it has a lower output at 3mv (those two things generally fall in tandem with lower outputs in any one manufacturer's line).  I have about 8 hours on the G1+ now and it is rapidly improving.  I have switched out the Green stylus on to the G1+...and to me it sounds better than the Green.  Ditto - I've switched on the G1+ Shibata stylus to both cartridges, and I think the G1+ is slightly better.  It will prove interesting as the 25th hour passes and it's fully run-in.

The G1+ is supposedly equal to the Gold and sold for $165 some 20 years ago...so, it should be better than today's Green.


Psychicanimal
400 mH impedance is still high-ish...which means it is an inherently noisy (internally) cartridge...it just comes with the territory. It also means DC resistance is probably well over 1000 ohms, which will mean detail retrieval will be somewhat obscured with a deficit in transparency to low output cartridges and even hi output Grado's. Yes, the high's will fall off outside of 20khz if capacitance is minimized.  If you are running into a outboard phono preamp - and incorporating two sets of IC's in using it - you are likely running something like 125 pf (Technics wiring)+ 75-100pf (addition IC's from phono stage to preamp) of total capacitance.  If you do that, your treble response will fall off within 20kz.

It doesn't mean it won't have some other kick ass attributes that will be pleasing to you...great tone, good tracking, etc.....but high-ish impedance and DC resistance automatically begins with high-ish noise, less signal passing thru the coils and still hundreds of feet of them to pass thru, not-terribly extended real treble response and detail retrieval and transparency will not be its strong suit.

You'll need Dusty or someone else to dial back your MM inputs from 75K or so to best match with it...the 75K ohm setting will make it too 'spacious' at the expense of dynamics and flat frequency response due to electrical damping.

http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html

But, it's definitely a move in the right direction from the 800 mh impedance Stantons like on the 680/681 series. Lower impedance is always a good direction, all other things being equal, in a phono cartridge 

That's why, most likely, the Grado G1+ might sound better than the Green (with same stylus on it)....lower internal impedance yet still sufficient output voltage at 3mv to be dynamic with my preamp.

[Psychicanimal]

Psychicanimal
400 mH impedance is still high-ish...which means it is an inherently noisy (internally) cartridge...it just comes with the territory. It also means DC resistance is probably well over 1000 ohms, which will mean detail retrieval will be somewhat obscured with a deficit in transparency to low output cartridges and even hi output Grado's.

The thing measured 375 Ohms in each channel...far from 1000 Ohms.    My Monolithic phono pre has settings for capacitance, gain and resistance.  I'll have to wait to set things up again (I have yet to mail Kevin the cartridges).  I asked Kevin to install the original Stereohedron stylus that came w/ the Groovemaster.  If I run into a used low inductance Stanton CS-100 then I'll have two NOS Super Stereohedron styluses for it.

Point is entry to mid level cartridges with excellent stylus can go a long ways...


***

[TheChairGuy]

Point is entry to mid level cartridges with excellent stylus can go a long ways...

Amen there.

The (high output) 881 and 981's have 900 and 800 ohms internal DC resistance/impedance...it's not until you get to the very low output 981LZS in the Stanton line does DC resistance fall significantly in their line.  Which one you got there?

www.cartridgedb.com

Interestingly, the 500 series (mentioned occasionally as a terrific budget buy alternative to other makes) has less DC resistance/impedance than the similar output 881/981's in that line.  But, no stereohedron (nee, otherwise known as Shibata or Line) stylus....just cheapie ellipticals and sphericals.  500 ohms internal resistance is very, very good outside of moving coils. I actually know someone that re-tipped with a ruby stylus from SoundSmith and glows over the cartridge.  Sounds a bit daft to take a $39 cartidge and put a $250 tip on it....but that very low-ish internal resistance figure would indicate pretty transparent and fast musical reproduction (for moving magnets/moving irons) 

[Psychicanimal]

The (high output) 881 and 981's have 900 and 800 ohms internal DC resistance/impedance...it's not until you get to the very low output 981LZS in the Stanton line does DC resistance fall significantly in their line.  Which one you got there?

www.cartridgedb.com

The Trackmaster I is not listed there.  Here's the specs:

STYLUS TYPE T-AL,SIZE .007"SPHERICAL,TRACKING FORCE (1) 2-5 GRAMS,FREQUENCY RESPONSE (2) 20-20K,OUTPUT VOLTAGE (3) 5.2 MV,CHANNEL SEPARATION >30DB,TRACKING 90 @ 3 GR,CARTRIDGE DC RESISTANCE: 450 OHMS,IMPEDANCE: 400 MH,WEIGH: 18 GRAMS.

Interestingly, the 500 series (mentioned occasionally as a terrific budget buy alternative to other makes) has less DC resistance/impedance than the similar output 881/981's in that line.  But, no stereohedron (nee, otherwise known as Shibata or Line) stylus....just cheapie ellipticals and sphericals.  500 ohms internal resistance is very, very good outside of moving coils. I actually know someone that re-tipped with a ruby stylus from SoundSmith and glows over the cartridge.  Sounds a bit daft to take a $39 cartidge and put a $250 tip on it....but that very low-ish internal resistance figure would indicate pretty transparent and fast musical reproduction (for moving magnets/moving irons) 

Would you believe Kevin told me this past week it would be interesting to get one of those 500's, rewind the coils and use a better stylus?

I know the Ortofon X5 sounds more transparent than the modded Groovemaster.  Nonetheless, I want to see how much improvement I get by going to the same cartridge body with half the coil windings.  Freq response should go beyond 20K easy.  It may very well beat anything else out there under $1500!

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[TheChairGuy]

Wow, that's interesting about Kevin and the Stantaon 500.  I'm pretty sure they still make a DJ version of it so the boidy is around (and a cheap platform to work from).  Rewinding the coils and fitting a new stylus to it would put him in rarified league of cartridge rebuilders.  That would be a most interesting turn