[Greggo]

Just wondering if most of you go with a fully stand alone system or do both high end headphone set ups along with a regular high end audio system.  I have the latter and investigating the former while also thinking about a complete "do-over" in the next year or so.  I currently listen to Senn HD 555 plugged into an outlaw audio receiver, and though I think I am getting very good sound for the money, I am craving something that will really raise the bar (and as much as I respect the comfort and smoothness of the Senn, I know that this is not the direction I want to go in with headphones).

I am thinking about a computer based set up for CD, DVD, and streaming digital files of various sorts (still learning about his and if I need to rip everything first or if I can actually use the computer's CD/DVD drive as a real time transport player) into a preamp that will also accomodate a good vinyl system / phono stage and then run this into amp and then speakers.  If I wanted a high quality headphone set up (truly giving this equal consideration to the main system), where is the best point to integrate?  Should I have seperate DACs and split things off the computer's digital feed, or off a DAC with dual outputs so I can run one set to a preamp and another set to a dedicated headphone amp, or do I find a preamp that accomodates both an amp feed and a headphone amp feed?  Just wondering what you folks feel is the most optimal way to go here.

Background Info:  not rich, but willing to spend like an idiot.  Computer stuff comes easy as I am a tech consultant and always buying new computing toys (don't tell the IRS they are just toys though...) thinking about selling all my stuff and starting from scratch, and would be looking at 7-10k for everything after the computer but before final power amps and speakers (will be building passive or active line level crossovers, power amplifiers and speakers either by kit or from scratch and won't count those projects as part of the budget).  So basically, I am looking at dedicated software/hardware to add to a Mac Mini that I will be buying next month, DAC, Pre, Turntable/Cartridge, headphone amp, headphones and cables to come in under 10k and will probably spend half of that on the turntable/cartridge (probably Project RPM 10 and suitable cartridge that costs less than the turntable).

For headphone listening, I am leaning towards Grado, Beyerdynamic, or AKG phones with an amp that drives the combination to a solid, clean studio type of sound with rock solid bass and lots of dynamic punch.  My speaker based system is always tilted toward highly resolved female voices and deep fleshy images across a pinpoint defined soundstage, as that is what my spouse and I both enjoy, but once in a while I really want to rock out, or get into electronica stuff that just helps me zone out for a while, or listen to great bass players or drummers take their instruments to the next level, and for that I don't care about most of the things in my main system as it is too whimpy to do that stuff justice.  So I want some kick-&%^ phones that don't do anything wrong but really get the bass and dynamics more than right, and I would like to keep this all integrated with a nice main audio system as much as possible.

Any thoughts to share?

Thanks,

Greg Jensen

[shokunin]

My two main listening areas office and living room are both speakers and headphone based.  In my living room room setup, headphone listening is secondary.  All the equipment CD, DAC, speakers, etc were chosen for stereo listening, how they sounded on headphones were not part of the evaluation criteria.  However, the system sounds wonderful through headphones (AKG K1000) driven by an amp (First watt F-1) the only tweak I’ve done was to hardwire the AKG’s with Stefan’s hardwire 15’ wire.   My office systems also uses AKG’s driven off a tube amp.

The AKG K1000’s are ruthless of how they are fed and in my opinion are not really well suited for cranking it up for deeeep bass, it’ll distort badly and rather quickly.  Even with the well regarded 10watt F1 amp to drive the AKG’s the bass can distort rather quickly and not even that loudly on certain types of music.    I may even swap out the F1 for some other SET or SEP tube based gear to get some lovely tube harmonics in there…

For me though, headphones, while a very accurate and satisfying are just not as “fun” as getting the chest pounding bass and pinpoint soundstage and imaging you can get from speakers. 

[Greggo]

Shokunin,

Thanks for the reply.  I think I can relate to your post regarding bass, and music priorities, and speakers, etc... Do the amps you mention have a headphone jack or are you doing something special with the connectors intended for speaker wire?  Also, it sounds like even though you have an excellent pair of phones you are satisfied enough driving them off your primary amp, have you ever compared your headphone experience between your amps and a dedicated headphone amplifier?  I am very curious if there are any preamps out there that might fall within my budget that offer performance equal to strong contenders in the dedicated headphone amp category.

Thanks,

Greg Jensen

[shokunin]

Greg.

The AKG K1000 is a special beast, they require LOTs of power and are made to connect to regular amplifiers and not the normal headphone amps.  They typically want 1w at 120ohms, which could relate to about 10w on a 8ohm amp.  I only use the F1 for headphones and use a different amp for my 2 channel stereo.

The best place to get info on headphones would be headfi.org.  If you haven’t been there already, you could spend weeks reading through the various combination of amps and headphones. 

Glenn

[Greggo]

yes... amps/headphones all over the place... but I guess I didn't convey the true depths of my stupidity here.  I am not asking for help on possible combinations, I am wondering how it all gets connected if you want a system to do justice to both without switching cables around as you go from speakers to headphones.

So in your example, do you have a single preamp with 2 sets of outputs, one to your amp+speakers and another to your F1+headphones?  Or do you manage this in some other fashion?

And does the F1 have a headphone jack or do you have your K1000 custom cabled to connect to speaker terminals on the F1, or does it come with something to convert from speaker level amp outputs to a headphone jack that you plug into?

I hope I am not beating a dead horse here, I am having trouble finding info on how people are managing the physical connections and the system for switching back and forth between listening with headphones for a few hours and then maybe kicking on your speakers for a few, all with minimal fuss between the two sessions and with maximum fidelity, all without having a lab full of equipment that is all one trick ponies rather than admirably performing double duty.

Anyone else out there with examples, ideas, opinions???  Shokunin, thanks for the headfi.org reference, I am plowing through there as well looking for hints on excellent systems that handle both phone and speakers in a convenient and still extremely high quality fashion for both.

[elcaptain88]

Check out VanAlstine - they have a circle here on AC. Their preamps (& new integrated I believe) all have excellent headphone sections built-in. Besides being among the best preamps available period - the headphone output has been better/at least as good as any sub $1k dedicated headphone amp I've tried. I use K701's, Dt880's & a Grado - works great with all three. 

[WEEZ]

Greggo,

Are you asking how to connect a headphone amplifier to your system? You would want to connect it to a fixed output....like a tape-out.

WEEZ

[aerius]

Looking at your budget I think we can go totally nuts with some kind of custom solution.  You mention "solid, clean studio type of sound with rock solid bass and lots of dynamic punch" which would point towards the discontinued Grado HP-1000 series (HP-1, HP-2, HP-3) and the PS-1 Pro.  They're all discontinued so you'll have to hunt them down on ebay & audiogon.  Here's a review on them from the good old days of Head-fi before the commercial interests, shills, and clueless fanboys took over the asylum.  Since I've heard both headphones I'll provide some brief comments.

To me the HP-1000 is the golden standard for a neutral ruler-flat frequency response studio headphone.  What you put in is what you get out, feed it crap, it sounds like crap, get everything right and it'll sound really good.  Technically, I can't really fault it, detail & resolution is well in excess of any current production headphone I've heard with the possible exception of the RS-1, the imaging is very precise in all 3 dimensions, and the dynamics are very good.  Change the cables, the source, or anything in front of it and it'll pick it out.  However, given my tastes & preferences it doesn't work for me.  I find the sound a little too neutral & sterile, and the bass a bit too tight & lean.  I like fat tube sound with a bit too much bass so the HP-1000 isn't my thing.

The PS-1 is more of a fun headphone, it almost all of the technical strengths of the HP-1000 while adding a more liquid & warm sound, and a lot more bass, maybe a little too much bass for some.  To me it's a lot more enjoyable for long listening sessions, with the HP-1000 I tend to get stuck in "analyse & critique the sound" mode while with PS-1's I groove along to the music.

As for current production headphones I don't feel they measure up that well against the classics.  The RS-1 will come very close in detail & resolution with excellent dynamics, but its presentation is anything but neutral & studio like.  Emphasized & kinda syrupy midrange, some tizzyness in the highs, and a nice hump in the bass among other things, loads of fun and unmatched with certain types of music, but nowhere close to "studio like".  The AKG K701 gets the neutral studio like presentation, but I find the dynamics lacking & softened, and though the soundstage is big the imaging is rather fuzzy, imprecise, and lacking in solidity & "thereness".  To use a visual analogy, load up a picture in Photoshop, blur it a couple times, then turn the brightness up and yank the contrast down.  The fuzzy washed out picture is what the K701 reminds me of.

Beyers, well, to me they're very bright and harsh, it's like someone winged the treble knob all the way to the right, couldn't stand them at all.


As for hooking everything up, the best bet would probably be a headphone amp which doubles as a preamp.  A headphone amp is more or less an over-built preamp which can drive low impedance loads, so a good headphone amp will most likely be a good preamp as well.  Singlepower and Peter McAlister can both build you custom headphone amp/preamps that'll meet your needs.  Let them know which power amp & headphone you have, the sound you want out of them, and they can choose the tubes & other components which best match your needs.

[Greggo]

Weez,

Yes, well kind of...  I am pretty comfortable with how all these connections work, just curious what people normally do for best fidelity.  Maybe what this boils down to is this:

1)  For a combo system (phones and speakers), do folks recommend spending more bucks on a very high quality preamp with headphone amp/jack built in or just focusing on a clean line stage with an output (second set, tape loop, or whatever) that you can then connect to a dedicated headphone amp.

or

2)  Split off a good DAC if some have multiple outputs, or even further up the chain by splitting off the transport and running to different DACs, though I can't see any advantage when compared to the cost of two good DACs when looking at this latter scenario...

[WEEZ]

Greggo,

Well, I suppose it depends on your listening priorities....

I'm not a headphone junkie, so I'm the wrong person to ask, I guess. But if I were, I would use a dedicated headphone amplifier for headphones probably.

WEEZ

ps: don't use an active output to drive a headphone amp. just a pass-thru like a tape out or a fixed line level output

[Greggo]

Elcaptain88,

Thanks for heads up on VA, I have been reading his circle and looking at his products so it is good to know that he takes the headphone out pretty serious and I may look for a chance to do a comparison at some point.  His DAC and PRE, or maybe even an integrated would be a contender, and if decide that I can't stand spending too much time with a soldering iron I could always break down and by power amps as well...

I was at RMAF and heard his stuff driving Salk's speakers, they were a pretty impressive pair of vendors and I thought they held their own with anything else I would personally nominate for the top 10 rooms at the show.  Next time I am at a big dealership or lucky enough to attend a show like that I will hopefully be bringing along more than just a few CDs, maybe a top notch headphone as well...

Thanks,

Greg Jensen

[shokunin]

1)  For a combo system (phones and speakers), do folks recommend spending more bucks on a very high quality preamp with headphone amp/jack built in or just focusing on a clean line stage with an output (second set, tape loop, or whatever) that you can then connect to a dedicated headphone amp.

Greg,

For adding a headphone to an existing stereo system I would focus on getting a clean linestage/phono and then via it's tape or preamp outputs add a dedicated headphone amp.  Now if it was a headphone ONLY sytem, then a preamp probably wouldn't be needed.  Then again if you're going to add a turntable, you'll need a phonostage.

I have coming into my preamp (w/ built in phono stage):

HT Processor (Unity Gain on preamp)
Dac
Turntable

The outputs on my processor the feed my amp and my headphone amp (F-1).  The K1000 actually come with connectors with bare wire or spade lugs to connect to an amplifer, so they are actually made and recommend just using a normal amplifier.   For nearly every other "normal" headphone would require a headphone amp.   See or check out if there is local head-fi gathering by where you live, if there is one, you could probably listen to 10-15 setups that would help you narrow down your choices.

Glenn

[Greggo]

Aerius,

Thanks for the thoughtfull review of headhpones and for mentioning a couple of vendors that might be a good way to go...  that is kind of the $3,000.00 question for me:  is a one box solution viable here, and do I have a headphone expert help me get a quality line out to my amp as well or do I have a preamp expert give me a killer headphone section so I don't look longingly at dedicated headphone amps for the rest of my life.

You know, the more I read about headphones the more I am realizing I am going to really have to get out and hear some Grados.  Part of me really wants to just focus on getting the AKG 701 because it seems like such a safe choice, but I was honest about the type of sound I want when listening through phones and feel compelled to fully explore the Grado options.  Many many years ago I used to fall asleep with cheap headphones on my head and a walkman like player with FM tuner bringing in a local punk rock station in Boston.  I really like the escape that headphones provided, and I really liked feeling like I was either at a live show or in the studio with the band because of the direct connection I felt with headphones versus speakers (of course, I didn't have much of a speaker set up back then... but I still like the direct intimacy of music through headphones.

Thanks again for your post.

Greg Jensen

[Lord Chaos]

Something to consider (you mentioned working with a computer)... for your headphone listening, copy your CDs to the computer and then use a network music player to access it. There are various models. I'm using a Squeezebox. Then you buy a headphone amp to go with the player and your choice of 'phones. Of the cans I've tried over the years my favorite is the Shure E500, but everyone's ears are different. In-ear monitors have an intimate sound, and have the advantage that they block noise. The experience is one of being within the music. I bought a Benchmark DAC-1 to use as the headphone amp but it just arrived today so I don't know yet how well this will work. You could use the analog output of the Squeezebox to drive your speaker system.

[Alwayswantmore]

yes... amps/headphones all over the place... but I guess I didn't convey the true depths of my stupidity here.  I am not asking for help on possible combinations, I am wondering how it all gets connected if you want a system to do justice to both without switching cables around as you go from speakers to headphones.

It will depend on which  headphone you choose. AKG K1000s are considered by many to be the finest dynamic headphone on the market. The beauty of K1000s is they sell for about $1000 (...used, no longer in production), but they are specifically designed to be driven by a good low power 2ch amp. Low-power tube amps, low powered class A (like First Watt F1 or other Pass designs) and / Red Wine Audio Signature 30 are all good amps for driving K1000s. Which is  best  will depend on your sonic preferences (your budget accommodates any of these).

The other option in top-of-the-line headphones will be electrostats. That implies a dedicated (specialized amp) and likely more $ to pull it off.

As far as connections: Assuming K1000s, the most pure method would be to switch between two sets of high quality banana plugs, or rig up speakers with 4-pin XLR connector (which comes standard on K1000s).

Currently I own K1000s and use the XLRs. When it's all done I plan (hope) to be using Eichmann bananas.

In my case I have factory upgraded Wadia 830 driving RWA Sig 30, with Audiopath 8-wire silver ICs. Then I use K1000s and Omega's new 8" Hemps for my main speakers. I've owned and heard a number of systems over the years. IMO I believe that  I'm getting great sound of the $, and have the benefit of both a great set of headphones and really detailed and dynamic single driver speaker system. Total budget to replace what I have (if bought new) would run about $9K. You could spend more on speakers, amps / cables, etc. But if you want to use a single amp to drive both headphones and speakers, then K1000s are one the few if not only viable options.

BTW: K1000s do very well with the musical genres you mentioned in earlier post.

And does the F1 have a headphone jack or do you have your K1000 custom cabled to connect to speaker terminals on the F1, or does it come with something to convert from speaker level amp outputs to a headphone jack that you plug into?

F1 has 5 way binding posts. Most K1000s are driven directly from 2ch amp outputs, like the F1.

Anyone else out there with examples, ideas, opinions???  Shokunin, thanks for the headfi.org reference, I am plowing through there as well looking for hints on excellent systems that handle both phone and speakers in a convenient and still extremely high quality fashion for both.

Headfi is a very active community. I have several blogs their under Alwayswantmore. One covers K1000s being driven by F1 and Signature 30. Prior to that I ran K1000s in balanced mode off a Ayre V3 with a  Vandersteen 2W sub. Both blogs are linked in my signature (on headfi.com).

Good luck. IMO K1000s and single driver speakers make a great combo with a high quality, but modest powered amp.