Blast from the past - Field Coil Speakers

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raov1

Blast from the past - Field Coil Speakers
« on: 17 Apr 2007, 05:48 am »
Hi,
   There is not much discussion on field coil speakers here ... so I thought it might be a interesting topic to start off with.
   I got interested in field coil speakers after looking for upgrade on my super V2 Omegas (Which are amazing speakers BTW ..... absolutely a charm and pleasure to listen to day or night, and would not hesitate to recommend it to anyone without any hesitation)
   The web gave little information on the field coils ..... what interested me was the article on the Latour speakers from shindo.
    http://www.toneimports.com/shindo/latour.html
    After reading about the field coils ... I wanted to know more about these enigmatic speakers .... Again the web provided little knowledge .... few DIYers knew and enjoyed some of the vintage field coils
    The brands I came to know about ....
    The Supravox
   http://www.supravox.com/
    The PHY-HPs
    http://www.phy-hp.com/English/Products/Products.html
    The vintage altecs and the rest of the crew
    Oh yeah the Feastex speakers ...
    http://www.feastrex.com/english/index.html
    On AA I was able to get another brand name ... Fertin
    http://www.jlbcreations.com/Fertin/default.asp
    All these seem to be some exotic species that I had to try out.
    Finally after some soul search I pulled the trigger on the 20ex field coil speakers from Fertin.
    They were shipped from a small town in the south of France (Siegan). BTW .... the manufacturer is shy and does not speak a lot of English ... so most of my emails were translated using babelfish. It was a very tense week and I was not sure if the wire tansfer went though right and weather this was a legitimate transaction ..... well I had the speakers at my doorstep in less than a week after the money was transferred.
    I had asked a local cabinet maker to make me the open baffle according to the Fertin plan ( I had contacted Loius at Omegaspeakers ..... who was the one to Suggest that .... talk about coustomer support). I had everything setup in a few days. I use a 12V 26amp SLA battery for the speakers. I was using the sound card in the ibook which was fair. I upgraded to the "brick" from wavelength audio ... what a difference .... Scary real life presentations..
     My wife and my mother-in-law ( most of you must know how difficult it is to please one .... in case you are trying to justify the costs) .... who are trained in classical music start talking to me in audiophile language ..... I can see a sound stage, voices are real, instruments are real, music is relaxing, bass (referred to as drums and thump are convincing). BTW my mother-in-law had a 3 hour listening session last Sunday and did not want to leave the sweet spot. Of course she walked out saying that some of the music gave her goosebumps.
    How does it compare to other field coil drivers.
    Supravoxes in a real loaded horns are really impressive
    PHYs in a semi-open baffles ($40,000 at Toni's, Glendale, CA) are stunning
    Does one sound better than the other .... maybe .... not all were in a similar setup
    For example the Phys were driven by a solid state Supravox amp ..... sounded harsh and edgy ..... the bass was to die for, but needs a tweeter
    The supravox in a rear loaded horn sounded coherent, fast and extremely musical, but again needs a tweeter.
    My fertin in a open baffle are about a foot or foot and a half from the back wall sounds very very close to both as in terms of field coil speakers ..... but better as open baffle. Well, better placement will improve the sound ofcourse!!!! but its in my bedroom so the WAF in in full swing
    Will one stand out as a leader when each one is put to test in a similar setup ..... I think Fertins will win as they have better frequency extension and also newer and improved voice coils.
    So overall it is interesting to know that when the rest of the world has moved on  ..... Field coils still survive in small towns of France and ofcourse in the really anal hardcore audiopile junkies in Japan.
    So how much difference has the fertin's made to my upgrade ... I would say 45-50% ..... most of it is because its a larger driver when compared to the 4.5" fostex. How much improvement has the DAC made .... about 40%. I upgraded the ClariT amp to have paper-in-oil caps and a DACT volume control .... which has added another 10-15% to the music. Over all my music presentations now are scary real ..... from what I thought was good music to great music
    Source .... ibook--->iTunes
    DAC ..... Brick
    Amp ..... RWA ClariT amp
    Speakers ..... Fertin 20ex
     Cheers

shep

Re: Blast from the past - Field Coil Speakers
« Reply #1 on: 17 Apr 2007, 10:55 am »
Yup French Hi-end is alive and well. Pity it's so pricey though. Small businesses have a really hard time due to heavy indirect taxing. They have to pass this on to their clients. This discourages many from ever attempting anything as marginal as small-scale, home-grown audio. These people are in my neck of the woods. If you ever have a translation problem, PM me.

JoshK

Re: Blast from the past - Field Coil Speakers
« Reply #2 on: 17 Apr 2007, 03:25 pm »
I've read some chatter on diyaudio about the Fertins with some interest.  Glad to see someone try them out.  How wide of a sweet spot do you get?  I can imagine there is some beaming in the top end, have you had other FR speakers before?


Russell Dawkins

Re: Blast from the past - Field Coil Speakers
« Reply #3 on: 17 Apr 2007, 04:10 pm »
Interesting, indeed.

I thought I had thoroughly scoped the Fertin site, so I did again and I still didn't see any references to Fertin plans for open baffles, or anything else by way of enclosures. Where did you find this info?

How hot does the Fertin field coil get in operation with that battery, and do you know what the field coil's power consumption is in watts or amps?

Also I am curious to know which model of PHY is selling for $40,000 and I presume you are not saying you have come across a field coil PHY HP ... are you?!

You say both the Supravox and the PHY need tweeters - do you find the Fertin does not??

Do you have any criticisms of the Fertin sound at all?

Finally, (sorry for the barrage of questions!)  I am curious also about the newer and improved voice coil to which you refer.

nullspace

Re: Blast from the past - Field Coil Speakers
« Reply #4 on: 17 Apr 2007, 05:47 pm »
Hi All --

I too have a pair of the Fertin 20EX, but the older model. I have mine in the ubiquitious JELabs OB. My pair don't extend to 20khz, so I have a pair of Fostex FT96H hooked up in reverse and facing backwards with .68uf caps. They definitely beam, but not badly. I find I can enjoy them from anywhere on the first floor of my house.

I think the two of them hooked up in parallel to a 12v battery draw ~2.2amps. The field coil resistances are slightly different -- 9.9 & 11.7 ohms DCR. The theile/small numbers then differ, but I honestly can't tell the difference. The cover over the field coils doesn't get hot at all.

There is a distributor in NA, Gilles Gagne, who posts over at High Eff on AA and on diyaudio. As of late, he has been posting ads on Audiogon. Very helpful in bridging the language gap.

I don't have a lot of experience with high-end stuff, but the Fertins are very nice. I lucked out and got them used, so they were very much worth what I paid for them. I have a quad of Jensen A12 12" field coils I'll be messing with this summer, so perhaps then I'll have a better frame of reference.

Regards,
John

raov1

Re: Blast from the past - Field Coil Speakers
« Reply #5 on: 17 Apr 2007, 06:29 pm »
JoshK:
   My sweetspot right now is limited .....   I have limited options of placement in my bedroom .... before my wife decides ... she had enough  :duh:
    Yeah you are right about the beaming .... But its not at the top end .... I believe its the placement issue. These baffles are ment to be 4-6 ft from the back wall .... mine is about a foot or a foot and a half.

RD:
    The baffle plans are provided by the manufacturer ... I'll put it in if you are interested.
    I agree with John about the power consumption. I cannot give you a accurate number because I blew about 3 Radioshack meters meddling aroung with the batteries and power supply.
     The PHYs are - http://www.tonianlabs.com/TLM-1.htm. $38,000.00. I don't believe these are field coils. (I tought they were)
     I'll give these drivers a little more critcal listening. If I ever make it to Northern California I'll try and listen to the Feild coils from Shindo and Feastrex, and the other PHY other models ... including the Ocillia and Hans KORTENBACH's speakers.
     The Fertins do not require a tweeter, they go beyond 20kHz to roll of at 40kHz.
     Presently the Fertins have a carbon spider which apparently is a improvement from their older models.
      Regarding the fertin sound: The music is very detail oriented. Looks like the Fertins dive right into the music ..... fish out every last bit of detail and present it to you. The presentation itself is quite a bit different when compared to permanent magnet. The music is very very accurate and presented to you, as my mother-in -law said "in a manner which is pleasing to the ears and in a non-fatiguing fashion ... which makes it easy for long listening sessions"

Nullspace:
    Good to know I have a fellow companion !!!!

And John is right. The NA representative of Fertins is Gilles Gagne, who helped me get these wonderful drivers. He is in constant touch with the French manufacturer and is proficient in both English and French and a pleasure to deal with.     

   Cheers
    VJ
« Last Edit: 18 Apr 2007, 12:11 am by raov1 »

Mozart

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 16
Re: Blast from the past - Field Coil Speakers
« Reply #6 on: 17 Apr 2007, 06:51 pm »

 Hi RAOV 1, I was glad to help you get the Fertin and I'm happy that you like them.
 I'm the Fertin's representative in North America. I started out helping people getting
 their Fertin two years ago and I've been continuing ever since.
 Look up the add on Audiogon and you'll have an idea of the Fertin baffle plan.
 Mostly 2 birch panel plywood filled with sand(very stable ).

It's true that Jean-Marie Semblat doen't speak English fluently but he'll anwer to all of your
question with my help.
As the Fertin 20EX needing a tweeter; Jean-Marie,hen someone ask to get the cone without
the whizzer , he tells them that with the silver voice coil/cryog. and the carbone spidre;
there's really no need to add a tweeter. The 20EX will get to 20Khz and ++.
The carbone spider gave an extended lower and upper frequency. He change the
FS from 42HZ to 27HZ on his spec sheet with the carbone spider.
Also the cones have been treated to get more lenearity( more gradual cone break up).

I've always thought that when you keep it simple you can get many advantages.
What I mean is one driver ( fieldcoil, fullrange in an open-baffle with one amp. (you should try tube RAOV1)
and a cd player: this will get you very good sound . But again- listening
will be far more convincing that everything else. Is it perfect- surely not;
what is perfect in audio...








 


 

raov1

Re: Blast from the past - Field Coil Speakers
« Reply #7 on: 17 Apr 2007, 11:01 pm »
Hi Gilles,
   Thanks again for all the help. Right now I'm totally please with the performance combination of the ibook ---- Wavelenght "Brick" DAC ---- and the ClariT amp ..... Stellar performance products!!! It might be a while before I try anything new.

    Regarding the PHYs ... guess I was wrong ...
    The Phy is not field coil, it has an AlNICO magnet (which again is a different topic of interest) and Phy has a different philosophy than Fertin. They use a woofer (12inch) to do part of the middle frequencies and a tweeter from 7khz??and up. Fertin thinks that a middle range driver is better (more coherence) to do all the middle range; bigger than 8inch and you start losing the dynamics, detail in the sound. Adding a tweeter has its disadvantages: 2 point source, xover, and the difference in acceleration; this is why it's sometimes hard to get it right with adding drivers. So there will always be a debate on this.

    But again as most people say ..... audio is fun ... more fun if you are experimenting. A blast if you find a true jem and Fertin is one .... a true exotic speaker which is worth every penny for its unpresidented performance!!!
    Cheers

JeffB

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 490
Re: Blast from the past - Field Coil Speakers
« Reply #8 on: 17 Apr 2007, 11:04 pm »
How much are the Fertin 20ex drivers?
Is there a frequency plot somewhere that I could look at?

raov1

Re: Blast from the past - Field Coil Speakers
« Reply #9 on: 18 Apr 2007, 12:05 am »
Hi JeffB,
    My Fertins were about $3200.00 total shipped from France. They are the top of the line with all the bells and whistles. The base model is much cheaper.
    I'll let the Fertin representative give you the details regarding the costs and options
    Same with the technical graph of the frequency response.
    Cheers
     VJ

raov1

Re: Blast from the past - Field Coil Speakers
« Reply #10 on: 18 Apr 2007, 05:15 am »
I finally decoded the imaging uploading format in AC. Here is a view of the open baffle Fertin 20EX with the golden wizzler cone and phase-plug.

« Last Edit: 18 Apr 2007, 05:27 am by raov1 »

Mozart

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 16
Re: Blast from the past - Field Coil Speakers
« Reply #11 on: 18 Apr 2007, 12:16 pm »

 JeffB-
 
  you can e-mail me and I'll be glad to send you all the info. you need.

  RAV1 has all the options- but with silver voice coil/cryog+ carbone spider

 and shipping; they're pretty close to 3000US.