More proof that the room is the most important component

Hantra · « **Reply #40 on:** 25 Jun 2003, 04:32 pm »

Quote

Are you talking about me?

JohnR

John:

I wish I was talking about only one person. There are many, many people like this. I just thought this was a good example. . . Like JLM's post. . .

B

JohnR · « **Reply #41 on:** 25 Jun 2003, 04:35 pm »

Ah..

Well, while I'm very pleased to hear that I can treat a whole 20 x 25 ft room for only $20 (is this an audiocircle special?), I think Bill and the boys will have to raise their prices a bit if Nathan's going to get his R&D funding...

JohnR · « **Reply #42 on:** 25 Jun 2003, 04:38 pm »

I don't see anything wrong with JLMs post either. You can't blame someone for being sceptical about something that no-one will explain how it works.

(Pardon the mangled grammar)

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #43 on:** 25 Jun 2003, 05:13 pm »

Quote from: JohnR

I don't see anything wrong with JLMs post either. You can't blame someone for being sceptical about something that no-one will explain how it works.

(Pardon the mangled grammar)

Yeah, right. It's easy to say "proprietary". I bet that Salamander clone 8th nerve sells has something "proprietary", too!

WilliamL · « **Reply #44 on:** 25 Jun 2003, 05:54 pm »

Animal Wrote:

Quote

Yeah, right. It's easy to say "proprietary". I bet that Salamander clone 8th nerve sells has something "proprietary", too!

[/b]

Well, now that you mention it...

Nah, actually that rack design is being discontinued and our new rack is going to be realeased soon. Its much more attractive and 'proprietary'

than the racks you allude to.

I don't know quite know where this thread is heading: Nobody is trying to advocate or imply that we are using "black magic" to make our products work, on the other hand I think we all agree that everybody may be able to benefit if we expand on our documuneted methodology.

Cheers,
Bill

Carlman · « **Reply #45 on:** 25 Jun 2003, 06:27 pm »

8th Nerve products work for me. I don't know all of the science as to why but, they do and they're cheap. (not $20 but, less than $500 for a big, complicated room)
JohnR rocks... and should get best moderator ever award. He's taken a LOT of crap lately and handled it fairly well. I would've said screw it by now.

Back to room treating... I REALLY wish there was a product that was paintable and that maybe I could put together myself to customize it for my room application. The wife isn't happy about pillows hanging on the walls... and I'm not exactly nuts about it either.

I am buying a new house with a dedicated sound room. It's 14'x18' and has hardwood floors. The back of the room has a half wall and then some other stuff. Should be interesting to treat.

What % of the floor should be covered by a rug? Would a 8X11 be big enough?

-C

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #46 on:** 25 Jun 2003, 06:46 pm »

Here's a couple of websites to help you on your project:

http://www.decware.com/room.htm

http://www.foambymail.com

As for racks,

here is Ken Lyon's of Neuance DIY recipe:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?htech&1001889380&openflup&18&4#18

8thnerve · « **Reply #47 on:** 25 Jun 2003, 07:03 pm »

Quote from: Carlman

Back to room treating... I REALLY wish there was a product that was paintable and that maybe I could put together myself to customize it for my room application. The wife isn't happy about ...

I hear you Carlman, and don't think it isn't already in R&D. Ease of installation and affordability are the last two kinks to iron out.

rkapadia@ROOP · « **Reply #48 on:** 25 Jun 2003, 09:04 pm »

John (and all),

I'm sorry for being so curt. The stress of the long hours sometimes gets to me, especially when I can see the bed and I'm sitting at my desk working

.

I guess I'd like to rephrase what I was trying to say; first off, my audiophile beliefs (and we all have them) revolve around first understanding a technology or prinicple to the best ability, then attempting to apply this. As we've all discussed in audio before, one set of specifications means nothing alone.

For example, a subwoofer could be linear down to 10Hz, but if the manufacturer isn't willing to publish the 5ms impulse response then we wouldn't know it's too slow for most hi-end audiophile applications.

Another example is amplifiers; I've listened to negative feedback loop amps that have sounded superior to other SET Class A amplifiers, because the circuit was optimized for the type of amplification methodology. It's just a matter of optimizing whatever approach you choose towards hi-end sound.

That being said, I would say to be cautious when ruling out a component based on the implementation; unless you have a complete and comprehensive knowledge of the product and science prinicples.

Engineering audio components is no smalll feat, especially with the advent of digital audio. There is mechanical engineering (vibrations, cone motion, cabinetry); electrical engineering, systems engineering (optimizing a component to match within an application), and telecommunications involved (CAD design, demodulation of digital information).

Similarly, room acoustics comprise of more than just dimensions. Every type of wall material has a different resonant frequency, and sound waves carry and transmit energy differently versus light waves.

Regards,

Rupesh
(I am an 8th Nerve dealer)

nathanm · « **Reply #49 on:** 25 Jun 2003, 09:11 pm »

What strikes me about the 8th Nerve products is that they are fairly small and cover just a bit here and there of the wall. So since they don't have as much surface area, is the material itself more absorbent than foam? What's in those pillows?

In my own experience I've found that a small chunk of foam is not adequate to stop slap echo and that if you are stuck with a small number of absorbent items it helps to spread them out evenly. I am assuming the 8th Nerve approach is to control the sound arrivals at a predetermined location in the room via strtegically placed pillows. Am I on the right track? Does this spot-treatment approach still apply if one moves away from the chair? Not a loaded question, just curious!

Personally, I have decided to surround myself with as much mold and spore-ridden open-celled foam as I can afford. (still can't fathom why this crap is so damn expensive) Sure, I may one day be carried off by a pack of nasty giant dust mites and weevils, but it's a small price to pay! Although those 8th nerve "floorstanders" might be interesting to try in my POS living room with its crappy uneven openings.

JLM · « **Reply #50 on:** 25 Jun 2003, 10:53 pm »

A little skepticism is healthy. Before I part with my money I'd like to know what it's going for. While $270 for treatment of complete room IS cheap by most audiophile standards, the methods are still "beyond" explanation, and that's still more than chump change for me.

I DO embrace out of the box thinking. For far too long what passes for science in our culture has been little more than memorizing and blindly accepting stated facts because we owe so much in material advantages to conventional understanding. Those who question the status quo are pooh poohed. (I could go on and on, but will show you all some mercy.)

Oh and BTW, indoor air quality issues is nothing to sneeze at for those of us with allergies and/or asthma. In my case it has probably contributing to how soon I'll need a heart valve replacement.

jeff

rkapadia@ROOP · « **Reply #51 on:** 26 Jun 2003, 02:10 am »

nathan,

You've every right to be sceptical - I think scepticism is the only way to approach hi-end audio these days. However, I think there's a misunderstanding - the 8th Nerve products don't attempt to absorb all the excess energy. Imagine a room as having "hot spots" and "cold spots" regarding SPL's, if you will. Most acoustic treatment methodologies try to absorb all spots to match the level of the "cold spots". 8th Nerve products try to redirect the acoustic energy of "hot spots" for a more even dispersion across the room, so full absorption isn't necessary. From a physics standpoint, redirecting excess energy is usually a more simplistic and efficient solution versus full absorption. This is why the 8th Nerve products are relatively smaller versus traditional absorptive solutions i.e. Decware (I'm not commenting on the quality of Decware treatments, just pointing out the fundamental difference of the two between adressing room acoustic issues). This is generalized, but I hope I'm coming across with a proper analogy.

Regards

Rupesh
(I am an 8th Nerve dealer)

nathanm · « **Reply #52 on:** 26 Jun 2003, 02:55 am »

Please don't misunderstand, I am not trying to take the piss out of 8th Nerve, I am a total believer in acoustic treatment. My questions were not born out of skepticism, but rather just trying to understand the approach of these treatments, that's all.

With that out of the way... Basically it sounds like 8th nerve stuff has more diffusion and reflective characteristics than say, straight foam. Makes sense. I could see how this would create a more "live" feeling in a room. So...what's inside those pillows? Proprietary, top secret stuff? Just curious.

I really want to hear what a very diffuse room sounds like. My personal favorite from a visual standpoint are the RPG Skylines. Hideously overpriced for the average joe, though. ($400 for one lousy 2'x2' panel - thanks I'll pass) But I see a 4x8' sheet of 2" thick styrofoam is 18 bucks at Home Depot. Now I just have to find a decent hot wire cutter... a couple two 'tree hours of labor and some glue, bob's your uncle. Basically I'd like to have my entire back wall and the ceiling filled with solid DIY Skylines. That would look wicked. Ideally, a wall filled with rotating triangular treatments (reflective\diffuse\absorptive) would rule. Much bigger DIY project, though...

Hantra · « **Reply #53 on:** 26 Jun 2003, 03:54 am »

Nathan:

You hit it on the head finally. I kept reading about absorption, but no one mentioned the reflectivity.

So, let me attempt to explain what I think is going on. I have not been schooled by 8th Nerve, or had any formal training, but here's the best I can tell. . .

Basically, the "pillow" has a reflective side, and an absorptive side. The pillow in your corner will essentially absorb most sounds that are hitting the corner, and the reflective surface keeps a LOT of sound from getting to the corner in the first place.

It's more about absorbing bad sound, and reflecting good sound. As a musician, you understand harmonics, and multiples of fundamentals. So, if we took two waves and slammed them into a corner, they essentially combine. The resultant waveform from this combination will almost NEVER be a harmonic multiple of the fundamental. Therefore, let's try to do everything we can to get rid of it, and to PREVENT it. That's where the reflection comes in.

I used to have some very expensive, really horrible room treatments that attempted to do this, and actually did it pretty well, but absorbed WAY too much of the sound. If you absorb the bad, and reflect the good, then you end up with a room that sounds better. It doesn't sound dead, and it doesn't sound so excitedly live either. It's the best way I have found to treat a room.

As for what's in them, I can't say, but regardless, they are cheaper to buy than they would be for me to make. I can't sew a lick. Plus, the guys give me invaluable advice that I can't put a price on. They have seen bad rooms, and know more than I do about fixing problems. . .

L8r,

B

Guan · « **Reply #54 on:** 26 Jun 2003, 08:49 am »

Quote

Personally, I have decided to surround myself with as much mold and spore-ridden open-celled foam as I can afford. (still can't fathom why this crap is so damn expensive) Sure, I may one day be carried off by a pack of nasty giant dust mites and weevils, but it's a small price to pay!

That description really cracked me up. Careful you don't turn into the Swamp Thing!

I use Eight Nerve products and have no complaints about bugs and stuff...

Obie · « **Reply #55 on:** 26 Jun 2003, 12:52 pm »

Dear Friends,

Eighth Nerve Response pillows contain fiberglass covered on one side with a foil scrim that is refective in nature. Our Framed Response and Floorstanders use a mineral wool for absorption that we've determined does the work we want. The frames' faces are covered with a reflective foil underneath inside the fabric shell. We provide material safety data sheets to any customer who inquires. While there is nothing mystical in the materials, we've chosen the materials carefully to do the best work for the best price with the best build quality, appearance, and functionality.

Hantra hit the nail on the head when he said that we are trying to make a product for a fair price vs. the cost of making it or buying from other, more expensive manufaturers. This is especially true for our educational/commercial/pro-audio customers. Ultimately the value of the products is in our committment to service WITH these products that work so well. We've been very flattered at the attention we've received here and elsewhere for our attention to customer's sound. Simply buying the product entitles our clients to free consultation services. So, we manufacture tools for our clients' sound needs at the lowest price possible plus we try to lavish service on those who give us opportunity to earn their business.

The idea of hot and cold spots is a neat way to think about our treatment methodology. I'm going to leave a more thorough explanation of our treatment epistle to another time simply because I haven't had my coffee yet. Frankly, I'm also tickled and fascinated by the discussion going on here. Indeed, alleviating the distortion of pressure zones with our products is the ultimate goal of treatment. The products absorb distorted energy building in those areas without stripping away all the high frequency life from the room. This process sharpens detail, clears up imaging, frequently erases the aural signature of room boundaries, and presents a more balanced, coherent frequency spectrum. It may also cure gout, but don't quote me on that. In all seriousness, the basic goals of our treatments clean and clarify the presentation of your existing gear.

With that being said, many folks who believe in different priorities for treatment buy and use our products. As a manufacturer and general sound junkies, we want to serve them well too. They might throw up huge arrays of frames or pillows and get sound they really like. They used Eighth Nerve products to get there because they are affordable and our staff is eager to serve.

Nathanm, I'm tempted to send you floorstanders on approval because I like your avatar so much. I doubt Bill and Nathan would let it get out the door.

I want to humbly thank you for this discussion. We very much welcome your questions and applaud scepticism.

Warmest regards,
kris johnson

John Casler · « **Reply #56 on:** 26 Jun 2003, 02:10 pm »

Hi Kris,

Maybe this question has already been ask, but years ago, I used to correspond with Michael Green (Room Tunes) who had a line of products remarkably similar in shapes and size to yours.

Is this an "off-shoot" of Michael's original product, or something entirely new?

Obie · « **Reply #57 on:** 26 Jun 2003, 02:49 pm »

John,

Our pillow products are certainly a competing product to those that you mention while different in some ways. Some in our company had brief relationships with Roomtunes, but Eighth Nerve is in no way connected to that entity.

As I said above, we built our business on quality, low cost, and a slavish regard for service to our clients. I hope I answered your question. We welcome them, and we appreciate your asking them.

Warmest regards,
Kris Johnson

nathanm · « **Reply #58 on:** 26 Jun 2003, 07:33 pm »

Obie: Hell, for free "Floorstanders" I would send you free Brother Theodore prints! Just imagine my avatar uncropped and multiplied by a few thousand more pixels. That's worth a couples slabs 'o mineral wool, aina?

I could have hours of fun having my friends stand on one side while I hold a propane torch to the other saying, "See, you can't even feel much heat!"