[cyounkman]

Over the past two weekends, I've spent some time with a system at a dealer. I went in expecting to love it and want it, but I didn’t. I think the reasons why it didn’t make me happy with my repertoire at my listening levels [loud] are indicative of the quandary you’re placed in as the owner of a medium-high efficiency speaker.

System
Musical Fidelity A3.2 CD cd player
conrad-johnson PV14L
conrad-johnson MV60
Reference 3A De Capo i - 'Pro' version - black ash finish, phenolic edging, internal phenolic webbing (according to the dealer this model is no longer available)

stock power cords to the wall (no visible power treatment)
Van den Hul D-102 Mk III interconnects
Van den Hul D-352 Hybrid speaker cables, bi-wired
Reference 3A adjustable phenolic stands; tweeter was at roughly 38-40” (just below ear level)

Music
Elgar, Cockagine Overture, Enigma Variations, BBCSO, Andrew Davis (W.M.B. to Nimrod) [tracks 10-15]
Brahms Cello Sonatas, Rostropovich, Serkin, first mvt, E minor sonata [1]
Schubert, String Quartet #15, Allegro molto moderato, Melos Quartett [1]
Messiaen, Petites esquisses d'oiseaux, Håkan Austbø
Ravel String Quartet, Alban Berg Quartet, Assez vif – Très rythmé [6]
Schumann Piano Concerto, Hélène Grimaud, David Zinman, DSOB [1]
Bach – Goldberg Variations, Glenn Gould, 1981 recording (‘A State of Wonder’ re-master)

It goes without saying that this is difficult repertoire to reproduce—none of it is dynamically limited, a lot of it uses a good-size orchestra (and I didn’t even play any of the big stuff!); some of it is close-miked piano or string quartet, both of which can generate violent dynamic contrasts (which I’ve never heard a system really resolve).

Disclaimer
This is not a ‘review’ of any of these pieces—at most I spent 3 hours with the system, and I only listened to it as it was set up. This is all quality equipment, I’m sure. But as we know, the devil is in the details, and the details are … system matching.

Listening
This system did a lot of things very well, and most of them were as expected. Instrumental timbre was very good. On the warm side, definitely forgiving, but still very revealing of nuance in musicians’ tone and intention (sort of—see below). The bass was also deep and natural sounding, if a bit full; room interactions being highly suspect. I’m just going to dive into musical examples because that’s the easiest way to convey the sound of the system.

In the Aria of the Goldberg variations, I heard lovely details and exceptional decay trails in the sound of Gould’s Steinway. The bass was excellent – quite extended for a tube amp and a monitor—and gave a rich sense of the instrument and the acoustic. It also did a good cello…

Rostropovich’s tone was believably rendered, and the interplay between the two players on this album (and the fact that Slava sways when he plays) was captured well; the system also revealed the too-close miking of the piano which made it appear that the lower octaves were coming more from the left speaker and vice-versa.

A standard test for a system’s resolution of space, air, and string tone for me is the Assez vif – Très rythmé from Alban Berg Quartet’s disc of the Debussy and Ravel quartets. In the opening, Ravel uses the strings like a percussion section, creating a sparse pizzicato texture that lurches forward 2 against 3. For the movement to work, a quartet must control the syncopated rhythm while avoiding the ugly sounds often produced by plucking the strings (and this is a difficult pizz part). ABQ rise to the challenge, continuing the lush atmosphere of the rest of the work while playing neither too slow or too fast; their pizzicato playing is really just gorgeous; one for the textbooks—and these gentlemen create a pizz sound that (not to anthropomorphize) “blooms” just beautifully, the decay trail strewn with colours and reverberation.

The c-j’s and DC’s captured this lovely bloom very nicely. I’ve heard it better rendered only by very quite expensive tubed systems. What they didn’t get was the transient power of the pizz attack. Upon the first repeat of the theme after the interposed lyrical section, there are heavy offbeat accents (at the interval of a fifth) played pizzicato by the violins. These are extremely demanding on an amplifier, and here they sounded hard and closed-in.


A uniquely entertaining feature of Gould’s ’81 reading is the abandon (and arm weight—oh wait—how did he make that sound?) with which he bangs out the opening note of the first variation. It wrenches the listener away from the deftly-delayed resolution of the theme’s last suspension to Gould’s meta-rhythmic choreography of the rest of the piece. In a sense he is flagging the downbeat, because he intends to use it for the entire piece. (His commentary on the third disc is very enlightening in that regard.) My only reservation with the rendering here was the slight change in tonal character on this and other suddenly loud notes. Of course the character of the piano changes when it is banged; but this was beyond that. When you bang on a piano it sounds harder, but larger. Here, the sound got smaller, spatially. (I’ve spent some time banging on Steinways.)

In the Schubert, tone was lovely, and the spatial relationship between the instruments was remarkable. But it didn’t sound happy when things got loud (which they do very early on in the first movement).

The Elgar didn’t have the sweep and macrodynamic swings I usually hear out of those gorgeous middle variations. The orchestral forces seemed strained on swells, and I found that I enjoyed the climax of the Nimrod variation much less than I had expected to. The trumpet, particularly, in its golden moment, sounded pinched.

I’m using all these musical examples because I find it a bit difficult to quantify what I didn’t’ like about the system; even though I expected to like it a great deal.

I guess it was: Over-warm—I thought instrumental timbre was compromised by the warmth. It sounded great, but too lush to be ‘right’ (I am aiming for ‘right’, but the way), as if the system had magically added maple paneling to the hall that wasn’t there before, and pulled the mics back into the audience just slightly. It was also: not quiet. There was a noticeable tube noise floor. It was often helpless with macro-dynamics, but that is pretty easily dismissed as ‘just’ a power issue (although this isn’t really a small problem). There was also an over-arching ‘tube haze’ –- I don’t know what else to call it – that was apparent only after a while; everything seemed blanketed with it.

Unfortunately, I also noticed a lack of musical involvement – the results were not sufficiently dynamic (I found myself not listening until the end of a track—a sign my partner in audio crime always looks for). And there was an unusual fatigue at the end of my sessions – not the fatigue you get from bright SS systems, but something else… Difficult to explain, but it didn’t make me want to keep listening.

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There are a number of caveats; a lot of tweaks, etc. that weren't done. This system was more or less put together just to have the gear hooked up; it wasn't optimized, and was located in a small room (about 12x12x8) with another small system consisting of a wall-mounted lcd, a high-end receiver and a set of 5 small surround speakers.


The obvious things I would do to this system are:
0) Better placement of speakers -- for example, not right next to the electronics; further from the wall
1) Install serious vibration control for all three pieces. (to address noise floor and hopefully increase perceived micro-dynamics)
2) Upgrade power cables
3) Upgrade the CD player. My player, or any other well-rated player (However, the A3.2 is, in my opinion too dynamic if anything.. I don’t think this would ‘solve’ any of my problems here…)
4) Upgrade interconnects (to whatever),  probably silver.
5) Raise the De Capo i's several inches.
6) I might well prefer the 'SE' version of the MV60. (As reviewed recently in Hi Fi +, it’s ‘transformed into a caged beast’ or something to that effect with the 6550A’s)

I also notice that the MV60 is (as well as its big brother the Premiere 140) quite sensitive-- it's listed as .8 volts rms to rated power. I wonder if using a passive here would be possible? (Not to re-open the passive debate.) This system sounds to me like it could use a little less between source and amplifier.


The dealer noted (with some pleasure) that the amp was running out of power on the climaxes at my relatively high listening level. As a big proponent of the too-much-power-is not-enough theory ("Horsepower Rules!"), he recently related to me the improvement in a system that he upgraded for a customer from a Krell 600-watt stereo amp to 750-watt monoblocks--powering 93db Wilson Watt/Puppy 7's in a very small room. He had recommended the Krell Master Reference monoblocks (apparently cost means nothing to this customer), but there was no way to get them into the room.. He also mentioned that at one point he had powered this pair of De Capos with a Krell 600 in the front room--wish I had been there to hear that! So much for the theory that you should spend 60% of your budget on speakers... in that system it would have been more like 6%!


Anyway. I hate to go on so long, and I really don’t have a point; I just thought this was a very interesting case study in the ferocious demands on amplifiers when you’re listening to live orchestral or chamber music. I know lots of people (probably most people) are using even less power than the c-j, and seem very happy. Any thoughts?

[brucegel]

This is a mouthful and a half you have written.I also am striving to reproduce large orchestral pieces and I must tell you that you are asking the decapos to do something physically impossible for them which in a very small nutshell is move large masses of air.If you want to experience a pants wetting then get thee to a sound labs dealer which are not common and listen to there curved stats.You will have a stroke,guaranteed.Since our pockets are not so deep my experience is that to get what you are looking for you will either need to zone in on the ab tube designs like vtl or and this is probably even better a otl design.My experience tells me that transformers in amps are giant iron blivits(a blivit is ten pounds of shit in a five pound bag).If I were you I would chase down one of atma-spheres amps and since the decapos are our common thread you will be pleasantly surprised.The other thing that jumps out in your thread is the all too often bone head lack of system matching and lack of preparation that dealers exhibit.Also the room was anemic in volume and no system can bloom in too small an environment.Sometimes its best to just go to a stereo shop in a total I dont give a shit about buying anything attitude and just soak things up with relaxed ears and go to many different shops, then assimilate the commonalities of what you hear into a cohesive whole.It of course helps if you have access to many shops and know some nice sales people for example new york ,new jersey and connecticut.I am starting my own high end recording company soon and will concentrate on piano,guitar, and quartets initially.I am not often thrilled with the quality of what I hear and so I am going to try to do it better.Right now my favorite labels are the xrcd remasters particularly of fritz reiner and chicago and m.a. recordings which are all tube.My foray into recording will be with ribbon mics by royer and pres by millenia and direct to the masterlink by alesis at 24 bit 96khz.Some schoeps mics and b&k's as well.This is the most difficult aspect of the audio chain as I am sure you know.My motto is "a good recording is priceless".

[cyounkman]

This is a mouthful and a half you have written.I also am striving to reproduce large orchestral pieces and I must tell you that you are asking the decapos to do something physically impossible for them which in a very small nutshell is move large masses of air.If you want to experience a pants wetting then get thee to a sound labs dealer which are not common and listen to there curved stats.You will have a stroke,guaranteed.Since our pockets are not so deep my experience is that to get what you are looking for you will either need to zone in on the ab tube designs like vtl or and this is probably even better a otl design.My experience tells me that transformers in amps are giant iron blivits(a blivit is ten pounds of shit in a five pound bag).If I were you I would chase down one of atma-spheres amps and since the decapos are our common thread you will be pleasantly surprised. ...

Bruce, (may I call you bruce?)

I agree that 'reproducing' the large orchestral forces is well outside the realm of the de capos. Well outside of all the speakers I've heard, actually; with a couple closer-than-most but still no cigar (AvantGard Trios, big Wilsons, big Kharmas).

Even reproducing the full acoustic output of a chamber group is very, very ambitious in a non-behemoth speaker--even more so if it includes a piano, obviously (reproducing the piano is another story again...). As an owner of a small speaker, I have implicitly agreed to accept a smaller and bandwidth-limited copy of the original. The goal for me is to increase the fidelity of this smaller copy as much as possible. As such, the micro- and macrodynamic contrasts, while nowhere near 'real', should maintain a proportional fidelity to the original signal.

I know that with peaks around and probably over 90db, this is definitely asking a lot of a two-way monitor. The only reason I expect it to happen is that it happens in my system at home. The speaker maintains its composure at very loud levels, including challenging material, bass, etc., because it has the good sense to not attempt what it cannot accomplish (giant excursions and extremely low frequencies).

I have heard wonderful things about Sound Labs (I know they've gotten great coverage in TAS), but have never heard them. I have an email in to them to see if there's a dealer in TO or NY.

I've also heard great things about Atma-sphere, and am very enamored of the idea of a [stable] OTL. As it happens, there is a dealer (about two hours' drive--sigh) who carries A-S and VTL; Maybe I will pack up my speakers and cdp and have myself a little shootout.

I look forward to hearing your albums! Good luck with the label venture.

[brucegel]

Thanks Chris (May I call you Chris ?).I think you will be impressed with the otl design particularly the low mid and mid bands.I am going to be experimenting with mic placements on steinways in the next few months at Benaroya Hall here in Seattle.Naxos has been re-releasing the Seattle Symphonies catalog on Delos and they are very good recordings.A little known fact is that Janos Starkers performance of Alan Hovaness Cello Concerto is the first release from Benaroya Hall.The recording is clear but dimensionally flat and this is because at the time of the recording Albert Swanson was still trying to figure out the right techniques for capturing spatial detail.Let me know how the listening trip goes.Naxos release is American Classics Hovaness Symphony no. 22 #8.559158