I2s vs dac with a clock: newbie question

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 3539 times.

totoro

I2s vs dac with a clock: newbie question
« on: 8 Oct 2006, 02:57 am »
Newbie question: how does i2s compare to a dac with a clock feeding the transport (or other processor) in terms of jitter? I've been toying with the idea of putting a behringer deq, which has a clock input, after my squeezebox, and in front of a lavry blue or other dac with a clock output. I'm not totally married to the squeezebox, so a solution requiring a computer instead isn't out of the question for me.

I'm not totally innumerate, but certainly have a _lot_ to learn about this stuff. There's a lot of reading for me to do before I have any real clue, so please excuse me if this seems like a stupid question.

audioengr

Re: I2s vs dac with a clock: newbie question
« Reply #1 on: 8 Oct 2006, 05:31 pm »
Newbie question: how does i2s compare to a dac with a clock feeding the transport (or other processor) in terms of jitter? I've been toying with the idea of putting a behringer deq, which has a clock input, after my squeezebox, and in front of a lavry blue or other dac with a clock output. I'm not totally married to the squeezebox, so a solution requiring a computer instead isn't out of the question for me.

I'm not totally innumerate, but certainly have a _lot_ to learn about this stuff. There's a lot of reading for me to do before I have any real clue, so please excuse me if this seems like a stupid question.

The jitter with my I2S converters is extremely low and it provides ALL of the clocks needed by the DAC chip.  Word-clocks (like the Behrenger needs) on the other hand only supply the low-frequency clock.  Most good DAC chips are actually clocked on the bit clock, not the word clock, so a word clock like that used in the Behringer will not be very effective IMO.  Besides, the Lavry would have to have a word clock output to go to the Behringer in order to be effective, and I would bet that it needs a bit clock, not a word clock to get low jitter.

The Lavry also reclocks the data with their special clock technology which is technically good, however my customers have reported that even the Lavry sounds better when it is driven by my Off-Ramp Turbo 2 with S/PDIF output.  This indicates to me that the Lavry clock technology does not completely eliminate the effects of jitter on the input.  It is evidently not as good as the theory would predict.

I recommend that you do not put too many "band-aids" in the digital path.  Try to keep it simple and low jitter with the clocks, and use technology from one source.  It is not good to mix-and-match when it comes to digital signalling.  The interfaces do not work that well together.  There are a lot of issues, such as slew-rate, voltage levels, termination and compatibility involved, and even sometimes timing considerations.

If you like the SB, then I would recommend that I mod it to add Superclock4 and put an I2S output interface on it.  Then drive a Benchmark DAC-1 with I2S input interface.  This will produce superior sound to anything you can buy.  Short of doing this, modding the SB to improve the clock, power supply and S/PDIF output to drive the Lavry with a low-jitter signal would be my next-best choice.

If you want something wireless that is already available and will outperform your SB, then you should consider my Off-Ramp Wi-Fi with S/PDIF output or if you are willing to change DAC's, the superb Off-Ramp Wi-Fi with I2S output.  These both use iTunes.

Steve N.

FRANKe

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 25
Re: I2s vs dac with a clock: newbie question
« Reply #2 on: 10 Oct 2006, 01:47 am »
...Most good DAC chips are actually clocked on the bit clock, not the word clock, so a word clock like that used in the Behringer will not be very effective IMO.  Besides, the Lavry would have to have a word clock output to go to the Behringer in order to be effective, and I would bet that it needs a bit clock, not a word clock to get low jitter...

Steve N.

So Steve can you tell us anymore about how the clock in your new DAC will work. You stated here in a previous post:

Quote
I am also designing a new circuit that works only with the computer and USB to I2S interfaces, that will result in extremely low jitter.  This device I call the "Pace-Car".  It will be included in my new USB DAC that I plan to debut at 2007 CES.  I may also offer it as an external box that inserts between the Off-Ramp I2S and the I2S DAC.  This device will generate the master clock and send a clock back to the Off-Ramp I2S.  The Off-Ramp I2S will not need a local clock (superclock) because it will now come from the Pace-Car.  This is sort of like the "word-clock" concept used with some DAC's, only different, and hopefully better.

Steve N.

Is the "Pace-Car" a bit clock?

Thanks,
-FRANKe

audioengr

Re: I2s vs dac with a clock: newbie question
« Reply #3 on: 10 Oct 2006, 03:44 am »
So Steve can you tell us anymore about how the clock in your new DAC will work. You stated here in a previous post:

Quote
I am also designing a new circuit that works only with the computer and USB to I2S interfaces, that will result in extremely low jitter.  This device I call the "Pace-Car".  It will be included in my new USB DAC that I plan to debut at 2007 CES.  I may also offer it as an external box that inserts between the Off-Ramp I2S and the I2S DAC.  This device will generate the master clock and send a clock back to the Off-Ramp I2S.  The Off-Ramp I2S will not need a local clock (superclock) because it will now come from the Pace-Car.  This is sort of like the "word-clock" concept used with some DAC's, only different, and hopefully better.

Steve N.

Is the "Pace-Car" a bit clock?

Thanks,
-FRANKe

It is actually an I2S in and I2S output black-box.  The I2S input drives the clock back to the Off-Ramp I2S, so it  replaces the Superclock inside.  The I2S output drives SDATA, BCLK, SCLK and MCLK, all with extremely low jitter.

Steve N.

FRANKe

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 25
Re: I2s vs dac with a clock: newbie question
« Reply #4 on: 10 Oct 2006, 07:01 am »
It is actually an I2S in and I2S output black-box.  The I2S input drives the clock back to the Off-Ramp I2S, so it  replaces the Superclock inside.  The I2S output drives SDATA, BCLK, SCLK and MCLK, all with extremely low jitter.

Steve N.

Cool.

So do you still plan to integrate this in your new DAC as well as an external box between the Off-Ramp and DAC?

Also - is the new DAC still on schedule to debut at 2007 CES?

(Forgive me for prying.)

audioengr

Re: I2s vs dac with a clock: newbie question
« Reply #5 on: 10 Oct 2006, 05:53 pm »
It is actually an I2S in and I2S output black-box.  The I2S input drives the clock back to the Off-Ramp I2S, so it  replaces the Superclock inside.  The I2S output drives SDATA, BCLK, SCLK and MCLK, all with extremely low jitter.

Steve N.

Cool.

So do you still plan to integrate this in your new DAC as well as an external box between the Off-Ramp and DAC?

Also - is the new DAC still on schedule to debut at 2007 CES?

(Forgive me for prying.)

Yes, and Yes.  At the rate I'm going, I will probably only have the Pace-car at CES in 2007, and not my new "Formula One" DAC.

The new DAC is coming slowly now because of my large backlog.  Need to fill current orders.  I am however working hard on my new Spoiler USB TubeDAC based upon the Lite DAC-60.  This one is sounding wonderful.  The USB interface is still breaking in and I'm still tweaking the power delivery to the tubes, but it is starting to show greatness...

Steve N.