I'm going to work now and when i get home.....

Spirit · « **on:** 22 Sep 2006, 12:23 pm »

.......I expect to have some opinions and advice from as many ACirclers as possible.
Good, I have your attention!
I own a highly modded Hafler DH220 power amp. Those of you who ever owned any
piece of gear from the 70's and 80's know that the power cord is hardwired to the unit
and is of the quality of cheap zip cord.
My question: Does it make any sense to mod the unit so that I can use a higher quality
power cord? I know someone in my area that can do it but I think he will charge me about $125.00
I guess what I am really asking is - and I am sure there are opinions about this - do power cords
make any differnce to the sound quality of an amp.

eric the red · « **Reply #1 on:** 22 Sep 2006, 12:32 pm »

No. Change out all the crappy wire, fuses and outlets that are in the power chain before the PC THEN have a discussion on the extremely minor importance that PCs have in a rig.

woodsyi · « **Reply #2 on:** 22 Sep 2006, 02:06 pm »

Quote from: Spirit on 22 Sep 2006, 12:23 pm

I own a highly modded Hafler DH220 power amp.

What moron did the mod and did not replace the captive cord with a gold plated IEC? Does he know anything about his customer base? He should know that we secretly yearn to spend money on exotic power cords.

R_burke · « **Reply #3 on:** 22 Sep 2006, 02:10 pm »

Sure they make a difference, but like anything else there are cost/benefit trade offs. Putting a $500 pc onto a $2000 amp is probably not the brightest idea, but each to their own.

srb · « **Reply #4 on:** 22 Sep 2006, 02:21 pm »

Removable power cords are convenient, but are technically inferior to the same cord wired direct, eliminating an extra friction-type connection at the IEC receptacle.

I suggest you get a shielded Volex power cord ($7) from Carlton-Bates, cut off the end, and solder it in place like the one you have.

Bob Reynolds · « **Reply #5 on:** 22 Sep 2006, 05:32 pm »

SRB is correct, though I wouldn't bother messing with the original cord.

Spirit · « **Reply #6 on:** 22 Sep 2006, 05:38 pm »

Quote from: Bob Reynolds on 22 Sep 2006, 05:32 pm

SRB is correct, though I wouldn't bother messing with the original cord.

I like SRB's idea, but why would you not mess with the original cord?

Carlman · « **Reply #7 on:** 22 Sep 2006, 05:55 pm »

Quote from: srb on 22 Sep 2006, 02:21 pm

I suggest you get a shielded Volex power cord ($7) from Carlton-Bates, cut off the end, and solder it in place like the one you have.

I couldn't agree more with this "cut to the chase" advice.

However, if you want to experiment with multiple power cords, get a good IEC like a Schurter and make sure it is unshielded. (The shielded IEC's tend to limit dynamics a bit in my experience.)

Quote from: R_Burke

Putting a $500 pc onto a $2000 amp is probably not the brightest idea, but each to their own.

I disagree with this, though... I put a $500 cord on a $100 amp and it made a big difference.. I don't think amp cost has much to do with power cord effectiveness. It's all magic.

Spirit · « **Reply #8 on:** 22 Sep 2006, 06:18 pm »

Carlman:
My intention was to replace the old cord on the Hafler.
If I decide to hard wire is there a particular brand that you could reocmmend
that would help me swonically?

JLM · « **Reply #9 on:** 22 Sep 2006, 11:44 pm »

I'd also search the web for modders of these amps to see what they recommend.

denjo · « **Reply #10 on:** 22 Sep 2006, 11:58 pm »

If you replace the cord, I would shortlist Black Sand cable (contact John of www.blacksandcable.com). His Silver Reference cables have received very good reviews!

Denjo

Spirit · « **Reply #11 on:** 23 Sep 2006, 03:31 am »

So I did some thinking today about my own post and here is what I have come up with.
I am not an engineer - I am in the printing business.
Being a printer has forced me to become a perfectionist because of the technical nature of the profession.
A perfectionist and an audio buff - a very dangerous combo.
My latest audio thinking has turned to AC power, line conditioners and power cords.
I relate AC power to the example of water:
The water that comes into our home has been treated with flouride and other chemicals and then it is filtered. Many of us also install various water filters in our fridges or even on our water pipes in an effort to elimnate all bacteria before the water is poured into a glass or a pot. We would never think of taking an empty water bottle down to the local resevoir or lake and drink the pretreated liquid mush.
Now relate this to AC power. Obviously, power through elictrical line does not go through this kind of rigourous filtration. As many have stated in these forums before: Power is power.
This power issue, I feel is deadly important to obtain better sound from an audio system. Since I don't have the expertese in either power or water I decided to make a call today to Mr CC Poon the owner of Monarchy Audio. His AC Regulator has been widely praised as a great product and is currently being used by Marty de Wulf at Bound for Sound in his "Big Rig" setup.
CC makes a very good point that makes total common sense.
There is no point in changing any power cord in a system without first conditioning the AC. Once the AC has been conditioned properly and a lot of the sludge or "noise" has been removed, then the introduction of aftermarket cords will start to make a differnece in a system.
I would love to read some comments from some of more experienced Circlers so that I can expand my interest on this subject.

JLM · « **Reply #12 on:** 23 Sep 2006, 09:44 am »

Water analogy continued...

From where are you drawing the "raw" water? Glacier run-off or natural springs? Or 10 feet from an industrial discharge? (I've worked in water quality regulation and even this is a trick question as it can all vary widely.)

I've heard the effects of dirty power on audio systems, but never really at home. A friend years ago brought over his PS300, but it made almost no difference in my 50 year old house with crappy wiring in suburbia. OTOH in older light industrial neighborhoods I could hear an improvement when the factories shut down after 11 pm. In my current place (newly built with all 20A circuits/12 ga wiring, rural with almost no industry around, our own transformer, all new appliances, audio system on dedicated circuits/ground, cryo'd 20A hospital grade receptacles) I wouldn't expect to gain anything from conditioning/etc.

BTW I tried battery powered DAC and amp in the 50 year old and current houses and couldn't hear a difference. Other ACers have had the same at home experiences. So the bottom line for me is that in rural/suburban settings it probably isn't an issue, but as a hobbist I'm willing to try cheaper/easier solutions (like $50 after market power cords).

While we're at it I don't "get" 10 gauge power cords when typical residential wiring is 14 gauge (15 amp fuses/breakers) or maybe 12 gauge (20 amp fuses/breakers). I also don't understand why the quality of the last 5 feet of wire makes a difference. Shielding next to your low voltage audio wiring makes sense, but the rest is a mystery to me.

Carlman · « **Reply #13 on:** 23 Sep 2006, 03:04 pm »

Different gear requires different power regulation/filtering/etc. Just as some components will respond positively with anti-vibration feet and some react negatively or not at all... Some power conditioning is good for a preamp whereas others are good for an amp.. and most cases, you don't want anything between the wall and the amp.

All that said... I have heard a big difference using a 'Felicia' power conditioner on dirty NY power compared to no filtration on a Modwright preamp. Absolutely a huge improvement. It removes grain and harhsness you didn't even know was there. Good power conditioning seems to do that, while lowering the noise floor.

I have some of John's Black Sand cables (2 violets, 2 silver ref's, 1 Chromium). I changed a lot at once so I can't really say for certain what changed because there was too much change at once... new amp, new pre, new speaker position, rebuilt PC (audio source), etc.. It's all still burning in now. I have also ordered a Running Springs Audio 'Haley' to use for basic power protection and filtering. They're a very respectable company and am looking forward to hearing the effects of this piece in my system. I believe I will officially be 'finished' once this in place.

My system:
TacT 2.0S with the latest full modifications from Aberdeen/Mauimods
Audio PC source feeding Tact from digital out
McIntosh MC402
Piega P5 Limited speakers
Reality Cables for IC's and SC's
Black Sand Cable for PC's
Analysis Plus Oval 9 Digital IC's
Adding the RSA Haley for conditioning

When I get a chance to swap cables, I'll report back. I plan to review the McIntosh amp and the PC's before too long.

-Carl

Bob Reynolds · « **Reply #14 on:** 23 Sep 2006, 04:33 pm »

Quote from: Spirit on 22 Sep 2006, 05:38 pm

Quote from: Bob Reynolds on 22 Sep 2006, 05:32 pm
SRB is correct, though I wouldn't bother messing with the original cord.

I like SRB's idea, but why would you not mess with the original cord?

There simply is no benefit in doing so. I have to assume that the manfacturer sized the PC correctly, so what can you gain?

For quite a few years now, electronics, even inexpensive ones, have been so good that they are basically a sonic non-issue. Speakers/room, however, have been and continue to be the sonic determinant in our systems. That's where the focus should be placed.

I'm sure others will disagree.

Bob Reynolds · « **Reply #15 on:** 23 Sep 2006, 04:46 pm »

Quote from: Spirit on 23 Sep 2006, 03:31 am

So I did some thinking today about my own post and here is what I have come up with.
I am not an engineer - I am in the printing business.
Being a printer has forced me to become a perfectionist because of the technical nature of the profession.
A perfectionist and an audio buff - a very dangerous combo.
My latest audio thinking has turned to AC power, line conditioners and power cords.
I relate AC power to the example of water:
The water that comes into our home has been treated with flouride and other chemicals and then it is filtered. Many of us also install various water filters in our fridges or even on our water pipes in an effort to elimnate all bacteria before the water is poured into a glass or a pot. We would never think of taking an empty water bottle down to the local resevoir or lake and drink the pretreated liquid mush.
Now relate this to AC power. Obviously, power through elictrical line does not go through this kind of rigourous filtration. As many have stated in these forums before: Power is power.
This power issue, I feel is deadly important to obtain better sound from an audio system. Since I don't have the expertese in either power or water I decided to make a call today to Mr CC Poon the owner of Monarchy Audio. His AC Regulator has been widely praised as a great product and is currently being used by Marty de Wulf at Bound for Sound in his "Big Rig" setup.
CC makes a very good point that makes total common sense.
There is no point in changing any power cord in a system without first conditioning the AC. Once the AC has been conditioned properly and a lot of the sludge or "noise" has been removed, then the introduction of aftermarket cords will start to make a differnece in a system.
I would love to read some comments from some of more experienced Circlers so that I can expand my interest on this subject.

Spirit, your analogy with water is a good one, except that every electronic device in your system already has a filter built into it. It's called the power supply. Granted, some are better than others.

However, I have never seen a single power conditioner manufacturer publish the effects of their products after the AC power has already passed through a decent power supply. That's the only thing that matters. Oz can not let you see behind the curtain.

If the AC power is really noisy, it would still only have a minor effect on the typical piece of electronics compared to the distortion in all speakers. Why do audiophiles worry themselves silly over such minor things when the Pink Elephant is jumping all over them? It's a mystery. Ever wonder why the few magazines that publish measurements do not publish speaker distortion figures?

If you do want to use a power device that has a good chance of protecting your gear, then I do suggest ZeroSurge or SurgeX (uses the ZeroSurge technology).

Carlman · « **Reply #16 on:** 23 Sep 2006, 05:32 pm »

Holy cow, Bob... You mean room interactions and speakers make a bigger difference than power cords or even power filtration?!

Wow, thanks.

Seriously, I think you offer some good advice in that there are other factors to consider before getting to the finer points. Your generalizations about power and assumptions about system goals are annoying, though. I've heard the same thing so many times from people who don't know what's important to the person asking the question or from someone who hasn't experienced these differences for themselves.

Power DOES make a difference, a big one depending on other factors. I agree the room and speakers need to be 'dialed-in' to the best of one's ability first.... but after that, a cord may make all the difference or none at all for you... same for anything else... you could even go backwards.

If you come to AC and are asking specifically about power cords, you'll get a lot of advice on them... But it appears you'll also get a lot of breast-beating

So, hope you got all the 'advice' you wanted.

Cable debates are rampant and they always end up the same way... some say there's no difference and you're wasting your time and others say they do. Only you will know.

-C

Bob Reynolds · « **Reply #17 on:** 23 Sep 2006, 06:20 pm »

Quote from: Carlman on 23 Sep 2006, 05:32 pm

Holy cow, Bob... You mean room interactions and speakers make a bigger difference than power cords or even power filtration?! Wow, thanks.

Seriously, I think you offer some good advice in that there are other factors to consider before getting to the finer points. Your generalizations about power and assumptions about system goals are annoying, though. I've heard the same thing so many times from people who don't know what's important to the person asking the question or from someone who hasn't experienced these differences for themselves.

Power DOES make a difference, a big one depending on other factors. I agree the room and speakers need to be 'dialed-in' to the best of one's ability first.... but after that, a cord may make all the difference or none at all for you... same for anything else... you could even go backwards.

If you come to AC and are asking specifically about power cords, you'll get a lot of advice on them... But it appears you'll also get a lot of breast-beating So, hope you got all the 'advice' you wanted.

Cable debates are rampant and they always end up the same way... some say there's no difference and you're wasting your time and others say they do. Only you will know.

-C

Carlman,

Spirit specifically asked me why I would not bother with the power cord. I stated my opinion based on my experience. No more than that.

Regarding AC power conditioners, I wanted to inject a little common sense and point out that other factors should take priority. I don't think my comments strayed too far off topic and I certaintly don't consider them breast-beating.

We can agree to disagree on the importance of AC power conditioners.

All the best,
Bob

Carlman · « **Reply #18 on:** 23 Sep 2006, 06:38 pm »

My apologies, Bob... I didn't see that you were responding to that specific post, even though you quoted it... Must not have had enough coffee this morning.

As to agreeing to disagree on power, I can do that. Neither one of us know the other's tastes or experience with it.... so that's the only thing we can do!

-C

Bob Reynolds · « **Reply #19 on:** 23 Sep 2006, 09:49 pm »

Carlman, you have a tough position being Moderator. If I'm ever out of line, please feel free to set me straight.

-- Bob