[Dracule1]

Just curious.  I've always wondered why there aren't reasonably priced balanced amps/preamps out there.  I know balanced circuitry requires more parts, so higher cost, but it shouldn't be excessively so.  I've always wanted to put together an all balanced system but most high end manufacturers utilizing this circuitry usually charges an arm an a leg (eg, BAT, ARC, Levinson, etc).

Is is cost or just matter of philosophy for AVA?

[modular747]

Just curious.  I've always wondered why there aren't reasonably priced balanced amps/preamps out there.  I know balanced circuitry requires more parts, so higher cost, but it shouldn't be excessively so.  I've always wanted to put together an all balanced system but most high end manufacturers utilizing this circuitry usually charges an arm an a legeg, BAT, ARC, Levinson, etc).

Is is cost or just matter of philosophy for AVA?

I can't answer for Frank or AVA but the rationale for "balanced" outputs and inputs (I'm assuming that's what you mean) for home equipment is dubious.  Balanced inputs/outputs have long been used in recording studios, because they are less susceptible to noise (i.e. hum fields) with long interconnects (50+ feet), particularly with low level mic feeds.  It would be very unusual for there to be an audible S/N improvement in a home system (do you have your power amp 200 ft from your preamp or your turntable 75 feet away?).  Claims that balanced circuits reduce distortion by each half canceling the other's distortion products are also spurious.  Even if each half were an exact mirror image of the other (and they never are), even order HD is reduced at the cost of increased odd order HD, which is more noticeable, irritating and "unmusical."  Balanced circuits are now ubiquitous because they achieve a marketing set point, not because they achieve any useful musical or engineering goal.

[NealH]

Even if each half were an exact mirror image of the other (and they never are), even order HD is reduced at the cost of increased odd order HD

Uhmm.  I don't think odd harmonics are necessarily compromised with balanced topology.  The rest of your post is pretty much accurate. 

[avahifi]

Usually with balanced line additional circuits (or transformers) are needed to change back and forth from single ended to balanced somewhere in the system, circuits that cannot do anything good, and cost extra and are unnecessary for home audio.  Balanced line for home audio is simply another audiophlake adage that is wrong, as are all the rest of them (green felt marker edged CDs, ming shu dots, audiophile ac outlet covers, and so on and on and on until I want to puke).

Frank Van Alstine

[Dracule1]

Well guys, I know the theory behind balanced design.  There is strong opinion in both camps - SE vs balanced.  My original post was to see if a balanced design actually makes a difference in home audio, but I guess Frank made his point clear.  There are some manufacturers who offer both, but distinctly state there balanced outputs sound better, and vice versa.  I heard some audiophiles who state their systems were transformed by going fully balanced from source to amp, and they weren't using 50+ feet cables either.  In the end, we all have to learn by listening ourselves until we puke

BTW, what are ming shu dots - some sort of new Chinese delicacy?  Hey those green felt marker edged CDs look pretty

[modular747]

Even if each half were an exact mirror image of the other (and they never are), even order HD is reduced at the cost of increased odd order HD

Uhmm.  I don't think odd harmonics are necessarily compromised with balanced topology.  The rest of your post is pretty much accurate. 

The odd order harmonics are additive between the "halves" of the circuit - even order harmonics cancel out (theoretically).  All sources start out as single ended and have to be transformed to balanced at some point. You end up with a lot more active devices in the signal path...  The only useful form of balanced circuit in home audio is to bridge the outputs of 2 power amp channels to get 3 - 4 times the power output at the same load impedance.  However, the distortion products are also higher...  Don't confuse balanced circuits with push-pull vs single ended output topology.

[modular747]

Well guys, I know the theory behind balanced design.  There is strong opinion in both camps - SE vs balanced.  My original post was to see if a balanced design actually makes a difference in home audio, but I guess Frank made his point clear.  There are some manufacturers who offer both, but distinctly state there balanced outputs sound better, and vice versa.  I heard some audiophiles who state their systems were transformed by going fully balanced from source to amp, and they weren't using 50+ feet cables either.  In the end, we all have to learn by listening ourselves until we puke

Most of the same "audiophiles" will swear that their system is also "transformed" by $10k/foot speaker wires and interconnects...  What they have to say means nothing.  BTW, don't confuse balanced vs unbalance with single ended (SE) vs. push-pull output circuits.

[warnerwh]

One thing I've noticed is that some companies like Conrad Johnson who've been around for decades see no need for balanced connections and they make some pretty spendy gear.  I also remember reading John Curl stating that even though he has balanced equipment he uses single ended interconnects. When this level of engineers don't think it's worth the effort for home audio equipment who am I to argue?

If you're running very long interconnects, say 50+ feet, I'd be inclined to go balanced.  To build balanced gear you have to double some of the circuitry. It seems to my layman mind that having all that extra money spent another way may be the better route. 

The bottom line is that it's benefits in a home environment are dubious.  Spend that money on room acoustics or a digital sound processor. I guarantee you'll hear the improvements with either of these upgrades.

[Dracule1]

Your point is well taken.  I use SE to mean unbalanced because they are.  You can throw around names like John Curl and CJ, and I can throw around Levinson, BAT, ARC, Atmosphere, etc.   My point is this is a contentious subject, and I am wary when people become so dogmatic about a particular design.  I was hoping talented designers who sell affordable gears (eg AVA) would try the balanced approach, so us mortals who can't afford 5+ grand electronics could hear for ourselves what all the fusss is about.  Experience has tought me to trust my ears when people disagree.  Thanks all for your insights.

[OTL]

What about all the advantages of designing a signal transfer interface to a well known standard where voltage, impedance and current handling requirements are defined on both ends?  Wouldn't this be a huge assist in "component matching" and cable design?

How could anyone poo-poo a circuit topology that was specifically designed to overcome input/output impedance mismatch, capacitance influence on the signal and the considerable ability to reject noise resulting in a 3-6db lower noise floor.

FWIW, the balanced outs on my McCormack ALD provide a much more articulate (crisp, fast, tight) sound when used to drive either my Muse 175's or Atma-spere M60 II's.  This difference is much more noticable since the installation of VMPS RM30's about two months ago. My SO has even commented on how the additional detail enhances vocals, sax, bongos and brushes.  The balanced connections in my system simply add more life.  YMMV of course.

OTL

[modular747]

What about all the advantages of designing a signal transfer interface to a well known standard where voltage, impedance and current handling requirements are defined on both ends?  Wouldn't this be a huge assist in "component matching" and cable design?

How could anyone poo-poo a circuit topology that was specifically designed to overcome input/output impedance mismatch, capacitance influence on the signal and the considerable ability to reject noise resulting in a 3-6db lower noise floor.

OTL

Ever since standard RIAA phono equalization, (there were multiple ones before that), there hasn't been any move to standardize output/input - other that a general max line level of 1 -2 volts.  I don't see this happening as there is no real incentive for one manufacturer to optimize their components to interface with a competitor's...

What gives you the idea that balanced circuits are less sensitive to impedance mismatch and cable capacitance than unbalanced?  These are determined by the output impedance and output current capacity in voltage source components.  "Current source" components claim to obviate these issues, but few are actually true current sources - and have nothing to do with balanced vs unbalanced.