bi wire or single wire?

Carlman · « **on:** 6 Jun 2003, 02:17 pm »

Does the AKSA react to biwiring at all? I've noticed a few differences with speaker cable... The best being Audio Magic Extreme, which was $65 fora 12' pair and is silver coated copper. Egad! That cable just seems right.

Kimber 4TC was good but, seemed to slow down the pace a bit. There was something artificially natural sounding about it. (difficult to describe)

Cheap Canare cable (all copper, 4 conductor 16ga) biwired or single wired sounds poor and limiting regardless of configuration. The pace is better than the 4TC.

Now, I'm revamping all of my wires and in doing so, chose the Audience line. Everything will be Audience from digital cable to speaker wire.

I made the decision to bi-wire my speakers mainly because I intend to bi-amp at some point down the road and I want both pairs of wire to be as equal as possible. However, I am not sure about how the sound will be in the long interim before amp #2 is built. That's my main question in this post.

Another issue is my AKSA's wiring..... I have also ordered 18ga and 21ga hook-up wire for the AKSA. Why? Because when I first got the AKSA I decided to use a few different types of wire that I now know were poor choices. One of which being DH Labs speaker wire and some Kimber cable, both different materials and gauges. There's not a lot of internal wiring to replace but, I decided it would be best to use all the same stuff. The copper in the Audience cable is very good and has very high voltage capacity for its size. (500V for 18ga) Does anyone have any suggestions for which gauge to use for which part of the AKSA?

So, I've made a really short question (or 2) long but, hey.. it's a 'discussion' forum.... But, if anyone knows of any ill effects of doing biwire vs. single wire from the AKSA please reply... or if you have any other comments...

Thanks,
Carl

AKSA · « **Reply #1 on:** 7 Jun 2003, 12:16 am »

Hi Carl,

I'm not much help here, I'm very sorry. I have only ever used moderately cheap speaker wire, multistrand, PVC insulation, very thick (little finger diameter all up), and have enjoyed excellent results.

Wire is like religion. Biwiring is good, works nicely, but beyond that I can't say. I'm a bit narrow minded; I know wire makes a difference, particularly silver plated copper which I avoid, but when I hear a problem I always go back to the design and fiddle with topologies and components. I'm not decrying the guys who know about wire, but I've got my hands full, so I'm open to suggestions!

Cheers,

Hugh

Sotantar · « **Reply #2 on:** 7 Jun 2003, 01:50 am »

Hi Carl. I don't know too much about the subject either but a speaker designer explained to me that in his opinion, it really has more to do with the speaker of choice.
If the speaker has a complex crossover, it may be better to bi-wire to get beyond it.
If the speaker has just a few components or less, you probably wouldn't need to bi-wire.
Peace

mb · « **Reply #3 on:** 7 Jun 2003, 02:06 am »

My expereience... from biwire (4 conductors in a bunch), to biwire using two separate runs. There was audible difference using different cables for treble / bass.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=2323&highlight=

Tinker · « **Reply #4 on:** 7 Jun 2003, 08:47 am »

There has been a thread off the end of the AKSAfest about wiring.
I have used a lot of bi-wiring and like it, but now I am in to active systems where the point is somewhat moot.

Truth be told, many of the benefits of bi-wiring seem to come form the same considerations as just plain cable selection. Bi-wiring helps with damping factor and also partly ameliorates (well balances out) some of the smearing that accompanies the skin effect.

Worth fiddling with. Also worth exploring flat cable geometries.

stvnharr · « **Reply #5 on:** 7 Jun 2003, 04:40 pm »

How can biwire actually do anything?
A properly done crossover has separate high pass and low pass sections with input wires running to the speaker terminals. Dual terminals are needed for biamping as there are two amplifiers and the high pass and low pass remain completely separate. But with single amp, there is only one signal from amp, no matter how many wires are run from the amp terminal. With dual terminals a short jumper, 3"or 4", is run between posts. Biwire is just a very long jumper from amp to post. Is a 6' or 8' wire better than a 3" wire in any other application if a 3" wire is long enough?
Biwiring is mostly an invention to sell more wires, though not all will agree on that.
I think it's best to run one good quality speaker cable to the speaker.

Read the following for a better explanation of all that.
http://www.coincidentspeaker.com/whatsnew.html#Anchor-Wh-20834

JohnR · « **Reply #6 on:** 7 Jun 2003, 04:49 pm »

I did a simulation a while back. Even with a simple ideal 1st-order crossover and 25 feet of CC89259 speaker cable, biwiring cause a 0.1dB hump in the summed response at the crossover region. Goertz MI-2, as I recall, had a sort of double hump of similar magnitude.

Carlman · « **Reply #7 on:** 7 Jun 2003, 08:53 pm »

Thanks for all the feedback. The cost difference for buying biwire vs. getting jumpers was very small otherwise, I would be doing jumpers. The main reason for getting the biwire was to eventually bi-amp and keep the wire equally broken-in in the interim.

I've heard and read many opinions and I must say there is hardly any benefit or deficit to using biwire for the most part. So, I've pretty much come to the opinion that it is essentially a long jumper. So be it. The jumper plates I'm using look like cheap gold plating over brass. My binding posts are solid copper at the amp and I don't know what they are at the speakers.

I'll post a review when I get the cables installed. Unfortunately, I won't have much to compare them to because I've sold every cable I had to buy all new ones.

As much as I like to go with the simplistic approach, some cable makers get it right. It's not a religion for me but, I can hear what cable does. Basically, a cheap cable sends a signal to the speaker. A well designed cable sends it more correctly. What's the most correct? The setup that sounds best. So, that's how I'm drudging through this process. Hopefully, this is it for me. If not, I don't care... I'm tired of comparing cables.

Once I got my speakers setup and positioned correctly and the room treated, my system made me very happy. (Thanks to Kris at 8th Nerve!) I was moved and am content. (see cjr888's comments about 'how to be satisfied with your system') I'm there. New cables will just be icing on the cake at this point.

Larry · « **Reply #8 on:** 8 Jun 2003, 04:05 am »

http://www.audioquest.com/theory/theory2.html

Quote

He says he has just come from that side of the river. Can he have taken the wrong road? The old man cocks an eyebrow and says, "The road is not wrong, it is the traveller who is wrong." -- Soul Mountain, by Nobel Prize Laureate Gao Xingjian

Carlman · « **Reply #9 on:** 8 Jun 2003, 09:58 pm »

I don't know if I can agree with Audioquest's 'theory'.

From the AQ site:

Quote

Reducing magnetic interaction is the primary reason speaker biwiring helps so much. Biwireable speakers have separate inputs for the bass and upper frequency ranges. These speakers simply allow separate access to the two halves of the "crossover". A crossover is simply a low-pass filter which allows low frequency energy to pass to the woofer, and a high-pass filter which allows higher frequency current to pass to the tweeter, or midrange and tweeter. These filters block the undesired signal by causing the amplifier to "see" an essentially infinite impedance (resistance) at the frequencies which are to be blocked. Because there is no closed circuit at the blocked frequencies, current at these frequencies does not travel in the cable-just like a light bulb which does not light when the electric switch is turned off, no matter how many megawatts are available.

I don't want to get into a debate about this very simplified explanation of crossovers but, I couldn't get past the bit about ....only certain frequencies travelling in the cable.... due to the closed circuit..... man, that sounds like a load of crap.

Anyway, I don't understand the quote. Are you saying I chose the wrong path to get the same results? If so, that completely contradicts what you've sited (AQ Theory).

Please clarify your point.

Larry · « **Reply #10 on:** 9 Jun 2003, 11:16 am »

Hi, Carl,

My post was apparently intended for a general audience and on a more general topic, though it's related to speaker cabling.

DSK · « **Reply #11 on:** 10 Jun 2003, 01:14 am »

Anyone interested in info on bi-wiring and bi-amping may like to take a look at http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm

Cheers,
Darren.