[Raj]

Hi,

I have a 250 w SS amp using premium parts and power supplies, also a class a pre and also 2 differnt cd players, which although aren't high end, are ok. Now the second of these machines is a marantz cd 52 mk II, which is more than a few years old........ My reason for purchasing this machine was for my bedroom to use with headphone as it has a built in headphone out. One of things that has amazed me is the bass through the headphones, instead of hearing a resonance with some edge definition I can actually hear the bass string vibrating without becoming overblown. Now I thought the bass on my SS amp was really good until I'd heard this. I built my own leads etc, so there's no real problem there either.I've heard this superiority on both cheap headphones and also some more upmarket sennheiser's. Has anyone heard of loudspeaker systems that can produce this level of quality? I've tried to look into what could be causing the difference in detail retrieval and resolution and have come up with some ideas -

a) The headphones are connnected to the cd player directly, which means a shorter signal path with less quality eating connectors in the signal pathlike rca's etc.

b) The passive crossovers in loudspeakers introduces distortion which the headphones just don't have to deal with.

Now I do admit that loudspeakers have an ability of 3d soundstage which cannot be mimicked with headphones mainly due to physics and perception of sound over distance, but I believe now that no setup, irespective of  expense can match headphones for accuracy and resolution.

Anyone out there that has heard the same difference? Any ideas as to what is the principal cause of the difference between the 2 sytems?

Thanks
Raja

[Marbles]

Don't discount room interaction with the sound waves as well.

The best intagrated bass I've heard was the VMPS Larger subwoofer with the VMPS 626R's in the Bolder/Teres rom at the midwest audiofest.

You could not tell where the speaker sub integration took place.

Very tight bass, like it was not a sub at all............

[audioengr]

Lack of bass can be caused by several things:

1) lack of synergy between speaker and amp - the load is too reactive for the amp to drive (lack of control)
2) Not enough power to drive inefficient speakers
3) an old CDP that just does not have good bass response
4) cables that lack focus, either IC's or speaker cables

[Raj]

HI,

Thanks audioengnr for pointiong out the importance of cables etc.
I think that cables can help squeeze the extra mile out of components but will not make a poor component sound good. The question in here is not the overall performance of my amp alone, but the fact that conventional loudspeakers just aren't upto scratch, when compared to headphones, and if they are just how much do you have to pay for them?

With regards to system synergy, my amp and pre are from the same comapny and are designed to synergise with each other, on a technical note it means that the input and output impedences are complimentary. I have also removed biinding posts from louspeakers and wired my cable dirctly. The bass response and reproduction on my system far outperforms many many commercial offerings, and to be honest it's the best amp I've ever heard, including it's bass performance.

My marantz cdp is old but some of the key components have been upgraded (poor bass can be caused by old caps etc). If the cdp was in question how come when I use it with headphones it sounds excellent? Also I've used my system with a modified arcam cd 92, although not a world beater it's a damn fine piece of engineering, again the bass performance just didn't come close. I'm not alking about the systems ability for musicality and chest hitting basslines, but the overall accuracy of the reproduction. Again my SS amp far out performs other commercial amps I've heard, and by a long way too. One of the reasons my SS amp is better in this regard is that it's provided with virtually ripple free power, with almost 1 Farad of capacitence available, it uses an active power source with the power 'pulled' thru a filter by 2 darlington mosfets, this in turn removes the typical 50 Hz hum that ruins the tightness on the edge of bass notes.  

Can the world's best woofers match a pair of decent cans for bass acurracy?  

Now I do know that impedence mismatches can lead to problems with sound reproduction. I'm just amazed at how much difference there is in sound quality in a reltivley cheap headphone system to that of a good quality seperates system using conventional loudspeakers. I think you'd have to spend a hell of a lot of money to match the quality of resolution that headphones can provide. I do agree that perhaps cable can make a difference, but the difference in resolution I'm talking about really is incredible. When you think about this logically, how much do 'high-end' speaker cables cost in comparison to a decent set of headphones? Not to mention the cost of the other components. I can make my own cables, and at present I'm using a silver plated coax cable, my i/c's are made from oxygen free copper. Don't get me wrong I like my seperates system, but what I'm pointing out here is just how much better a sound headphones can produce for relativley cheap cost in comparison.


Thanks
Raja

[Raj]

HI,

I'd like to read DVV's view on this subject, as he always seems to provide a neutral and clear view, also he doesn't actually officially sell his own products, so his advice and knowledge aren't biased towards any particular trend.

Marbles, I looked at the VMPS products and interestingly enough the larger sub you mention also has the lowest distortion figures, around 0.5%, which is way lower than other products. B&W speakers which use pretty good passive crossovers state a distortion figure of around 1% at a given output/power.

All this has lead me to believe that passive crossovers in loudspeakers really do distort the accuracy of playback.

ARe you there? Any input and experiences DVV?

Thanks
Raja

[JohnR]

Hi Raj

Can the world's best woofers match a pair of decent cans for bass acurracy?

Um, I dunno... but you haven't said (I don't think) what cans you have?

Personally, I can't stand cans anymore, it just doesn't sound real to me. OK so most systems don't either, but somehow I just can't get any illusion of reality at all from headphones. I sold my HD600s and Headroom amp a while back.

Anyway, my comment is that perhaps this link might be of interest to you:

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/rooms.htm

Linkwitz seems to be quite adamant that reduced room interaction is key.

a) The headphones are connnected to the cd player directly, which means a shorter signal path with less quality eating connectors in the signal pathlike rca's etc.

b) The passive crossovers in loudspeakers introduces distortion which the headphones just don't have to deal with.

These sound quite plausible to me, the same arguments have been advanced for non-headphone systems as well

JohnR

[Marbles]

Don't discount room interaction with the sound waves as well.

Linkwitz seems to be quite adamant that reduced room interaction is key

That Linkwitz must be a farging GENIUS

[DVV]

HI,

I'd like to read DVV's view on this subject, as he always seems to provide a neutral and clear view, also he doesn't actually officially sell his own products, so his advice and knowledge aren't biased towards any particular trend.

Marbles, I looked at the VMPS products and interestingly enough the larger sub you mention also has the lowest distortion figures, around 0.5%, which is way lower than other products. B&W speakers which use pretty good passive crossovers state a distortion figure of aro ...

Of course I'm here, where else would I be? It's just that I don't want to clog up the system unless I have something I feel is worthwile mentioning.

Headphones - well, I am just short of being a cans freak, not quite, but almost there. I can't even remember a time when I didn't have and use any, and I've had quite a few of them over the last 39 years. Sennheiser, Beyer, Koss (in their heyday - remember Pro AAA? Well, I had 'em!!!), Sony, Grado, and quite a few others.

They can sound unnatural, as Marbles said, to which I reply so can (and do!) quite a few expensive systems, for sheer lack of synergy.

I find the most frequent reason for this to happen is direly lacking drive, which all too often boils down to a rather simple, garden variety op amp struggling to show signs of life. In integrated amps, it usually gets even worse - they throw in a voltage divider, which reduces your damping facotr, and the attendent transfer function, to less than 1.

Over the years, I have designed and built several dedicated headphone amplifiers, and as you might expect from most dedicated devices, I got some really cool sound (which should not be taken to mean I made some way out designs, simply dedicated). Essentially, I had medium power transistors driving headphones, and when the output pair can deliver like 5-6 WATTS into 8 ohms, you can imagine how "hard" for them it is to deliver 5-10 miliwatts in peaks. True, pure class A, of course (child's play at this level of "power").

In fact, I am at it again, this time in sort of parallel with our own Dan Baquer, who is working on his own design, while I work on mine, but boy oh boy, do we exchange info or what!

This time, I set my sights REALLY high, and I'm getting there - not done yet, but near enough. I plan to sell the design locally.

My view is that a pair of even cheap headphones can sound outstanding if driven correctly, and of course, if fed a high quality signal. If you ever wondedred what all this fuss about headphones was all about, buy a pair of Grado SR-60 cans, give them some decent drive and get really high. They cost about $ 60-70, off hand, and they show what headphones are all about.

If you want to learn how to dislike speakers as liars, go buy a pair of Stax electrostatic cans - sound to die for, and no speaker ever made can match them for sheer objectivity, speed, clarity and definition. The only thing better is listening to live music. But the price is far from gentle.

One point, though - I never liked close back cans myself, I always went for semi-open ones. Closed back will give better bass, but will also tend to sound unreal, as if the music was played in a barrel, and all too often, that bass will tend to overpower the rest. Semi-open lest in more sound from the environment, but also tends to be much more realistic, in my view.

Cheers,
DVV

[JohnR]

Don't discount room interaction with the sound waves as well.

Linkwitz seems to be quite adamant that reduced room interaction is key

That Linkwitz must be a farging GENIUS

Yeah yeah  

Add another round of beers to my IOU tab

[JohnR]

They can sound unnatural, as Marbles said, to which I reply so can (and do!) quite a few expensive systems, for sheer lack of synergy.

You don't think it's anything to do with the fact that they're playing back a signal mixed for loudspeakers? Or that phones don't have any physical impact when they are loud -- or on transient peaks?

J

[audioengr]

RAJ - if you have speakers that are known to provide good bass, then I can only surmise that it must be amplifier control that is lacking.  What is the output impedance of your amps and the impedance of your speakers (lows and highs)?

I'll tell you my experience.  I previously used CODA 10.5 for my main 2-channel amp.  It never delivered the solid, room-filling bass that I knew the speakers could deliver, but had excellent detail and air.  When I got some Parasound JC-1 monoblocks everything changed.  They have such low-impedance outputs that the bass is tight and solid now.  Very good control.  The amp-speaker synergy is key.  Of course, I use my Holophonic-PC IC's, which help tighten the bass.

[DVV]

They can sound unnatural, as Marbles said, to which I reply so can (and do!) quite a few expensive systems, for sheer lack of synergy.

You don't think it's anything to do with the fact that they're playing back a signal mixed for loudspeakers? Or that phones don't have any physical impact when they are loud -- or on transient peaks?

J

On the subject of signals mixed for loudspeakers, no I don't think that has anything to do with anything John. I always subscribed to Ed Villichur's motto at the old AR - a speaker "good" for rock but "bad" for classical music, or vice versa, means it's a poor speaker. I enlrage this to all transducers, including phono cartridges and headphones - they either deliver quality sound, or they don't, no buts, no ifs, no maybes.

On the physical impact - yes, there is a difference, it's no big secret that we perceive sounds below about 500 Hz with our entire bodies, which is why we speak of "gut-thumping" bass, etc. In that sector, the headphones can be surprisingly good, but can never really match loudspeakers.

On transients - I have heard cans which will beat most loudspeakers in transient response, with the exception of quality electrostatics (Martin-Logan springs to mind here).

How about phase response? Cans can beat quite a few speakers in that department.

I think it's a matter of taste and what you want more. If you value ambience, air and transient response, cans can be a great solution, however, I must stress this strongly, only when powered by dedicated headphone amps capable of driving them properly. In the bass department, the gravitas and earth-shaking bass, the classic dynamic loudspeaker still stands undwarfed.

Cheers,
DVV

[Wayne1]

Raj,

I think what you are/aren't hearing with you speaker system is room interaction.

What Marbles heard in our room at MAF was using Eighth Nerve room treatment products. I also used a QSC digital EQ plugged right into the sub amp, which was also a QSC. I used a calibration quality microhone into a fairly good mic. preamp into a laptop running a 1/24 octave RTA.

I was able to EQ the woofer to match the room  to + or - 1 db.

You don't have ANY room interaction with cans. Unless you start to treat the room as part of your system, you will never hear the same type of bass as you can get from something placed 1/2" from your ears

I just recently picked up a pair of HD-600's and I do like them to use in my office. I also have a pair of Sony MDR-V6's The Sonys are more dynamic and go deeper with more impact, but I do like the open airy sound of the Senn's better.  I am driving them with a Radii tube headphone amp usingg JJ EL-84s for output and  a Sylvania NOS Gold pin, triple mica, grey plate 5751 for a driver.

They do sound nice and clean, but for true inpact and accuracy, the VMPS combo in my main system is pretty hard to beat.

[nathanm]

Seems like it's really just a matter of perception and what sonic attributes you are going for. Headphones and speakers are two entirely different ways to listening to music.  Completely different presentations.   I have a pair of Sennhesier HD600s too and although they sound very clear and detailed, their bass cannot compete with speakers.

Perhaps the low moving mass of tiny headphone speakers pressed right next to your ear is just physically more capable of producing detailed waveforms? With speakers you've got large multiple drivers which have to move so much more air than the headphones by the time it gets to your ears.  Also, the headphones are single drivers with no crossovers, perhaps that works to their advantage as well?

In my experience I find myself preferring headphones simply because I can listen to them louder.  I took my SPL meter and placed it at the headphone cups and it was MUCH louder than the readings I get when I listen to my speakers.  If I DO crank up the speakers louder I hear many of the sonic attributes which I experienced on the headphones are there including more detailed, accurate seeming bass.  Unfortunately the neighbors are also experiencing the fun too!  (my sub is probably playing deeper for them than it is for me! )

[max-greece]

As someone who owns a pair of Stax Electrostatic "Earspeakers" I can say that I would never choose to listen to these over my normal speakers were it not for my 14 month old daughter.

Yes - Stax do a remarkable job that is, undoubtedly much less flavoured than my main system but, and this is the strange thing in this thread, it is precisely because of the bass that I would not choose to use them normally.

Actually to be fair the soundstaging, imaging, depth etc also all play a part but in the main it is the absence of that gut feeling you only get with real bass that is the problem, for me.

I think that when you refer to bass quality you are looking for clarity. I have heard supreme clariy from systems ranging from Quad 989 speakers (electrostatic speakers that g down to around 35 Hz) to lesser systems running a REL Strata 3 sub (my own as it happens).

As others have said room interactions play a bit part. If your bass happens to hit on a resonant frequency of the room then clarity wil go out of that rattling window. Through luck rather than any effort on my part my room is exceptionally good sonically and has proven to be relatively easy to setup for good bass response.

But the idea of using cans to get bass response - now that is weird (to me anyway!!)

[Raj]

Hi,


Well I've come to believe that the reasons for the differences are as wayne1 and nathanm have put it in their messages.

1) the cans are only a few cm's from my ears.

2) there is little in the signal path to take away the finer resolution.

My query was not of lack of bass in my system, but rather the overall resolution I could hear in bass strings on cans. To be honest I've heard subs and other conventional systems before, but had never heard this level of resolution in the strings in bass frequencies. Basically speaking I've come to believe less in the signal path = better resolution (with reasonable limits of course). I agree that there are conventional systems that do produce very tight bass, in fact even my system does, but I just didn't relaise just how much resolution is eaten up by the other components in the signal path- crossovers, rca jacks and of course cables. Sorry but I just won't believe that any amount of high end cable is likely to match a well designed system with fewer parts in the signal chain. You can obviously improve things by using a cable with perhaps better signal transfer propeties etc. The problem here for me is not masmatching impedences.

I've been comparing 2 tottaly differnt methods of listening and obviously both have their merits and faults.

 I suppose the title of this post has now become meaningless in a way. To answer my own question - more resistive components in the signal path = less overall resolution.

"But the idea of using cans to get bass response - now that is weird (to me anyway!!)" max-greece.

Somehow I've not explained myself correctly or someone has confused what I meant when I started this thread,I want to get 1 thing clear here, it's not bass response I'm refering to, it's bass resolution,overall focus and clarity of textures.


Thanks all for your time, especially DVV.

Thanks
Raja