Power Souce - Online UPS?

karthikn · « **on:** 20 May 2003, 04:30 pm »

I had been thinking about this for a while and this was also mentioned in "The great power cord debate" but got lost in the melee. Are UPSes a good idea for low(er) power devices like a DAC and CD player ? How about those that you get for computers ?

HChi · « **Reply #1 on:** 20 May 2003, 08:35 pm »

From what I have read and people I talked to (mostly audiophiles in Asia), it can do magic if the right unit is used. To get the benefit of steady power source from battery, only online-UPS works, which is also the most expensive. I just got a Tripplite SmartOnline UPS 2.2KVA/1600W last week. I will be doing some testing in the near future. Some people experience humming while connecting an amp to an online-UPS. If you are thinking about doing so, be sure have a high capacity unit to start with. Good luck!

-Howard

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #2 on:** 20 May 2003, 08:44 pm »

I can't say if it's true or not, but I've heard that plugging audio components into a UPS pretty much trashes the sound. Seems like there was a big discussion about that at Harmonic Discord.com a while back. Maybe it's true, maybe not. Certainly audiophiles are a flaky and superstitious lot, overall.

You'd think that it would be a bit like using those transformers they make for using AC devices in a car, but maybe the power is cleaner than that.

audiojerry · « **Reply #3 on:** 20 May 2003, 08:50 pm »

UPS trashes most eveything it toucles.

Am I missing something?

nathanm · « **Reply #4 on:** 20 May 2003, 09:20 pm »

Yeah Jerry, you're missing an R and an H!

You're not supposed to use UPS units folks - it's a sign from Mother Nature that it's time to unplug everything, light a candle and watch the storm!

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #5 on:** 20 May 2003, 09:28 pm »

I don't have one, but it would be nice to get one for the PC. Mostly it'd suck to be have a CD half-burned when the power went out!

Seems like every single bad T-storm we get knocks out my power. With the T-storm season right around the corner I'd best get one sooner rather than later.

HChi · « **Reply #6 on:** 21 May 2003, 03:52 am »

The original intention of using UPS is mostly for equipment protection rather than 'eu-sonic'. Be sure to get a unit that output perfect sine wave from battery rather than square wave. The square wave will definitely make the system sound like crap. One guy whom I talked to uses Jeff Rowland Model 112 for his B&W N802 suggested the use of UPS gives the amp better control of the speakers and make the speaker sound moe dynamic in full range. Has anyone tried with the online-UPS, not just any UPS, with his/her system? For those of you who are interested, check the following link: http://www.soundstage.com/planethifi/planethifi200210.htm.

-Howard

karthikn · « **Reply #7 on:** 21 May 2003, 02:19 pm »

Quote from: HChi

The original intention of using UPS is mostly for equipment protection rather than 'eu-sonic'.

I was actually was thinking in terms of cleaner power than than the wall power as it is from a battery utlimately.

HChi · « **Reply #8 on:** 21 May 2003, 03:53 pm »

Surely it makes no sense at all if equipment protection comes as a result of sonic compromise. Get a small unit to try out with your front end devices first. Perhaps you want to start with Powerware 9125. I haven't heard anything positive from using APC with audio equipments. Since all UPS are designed for computers, one thing you will have to deal with is the fan noise. You can follow the link I provided and do as the author suggested by creating an extention cord. Or you can crack the UPS opened and replace it with an equivalent fan with low noise.

nathanm · « **Reply #9 on:** 21 May 2003, 05:05 pm »

Quote from: karthikn

I was actually was thinking in terms of cleaner power than than the wall power as it is from a battery utlimately.

Well, the battery only kicks in when the AC power goes out. It's a "save your ass in an emergency and buy some time until you can safely power down your equipment" device not really a "running on clean battery power" device. You'd want something different for that type of thing.

karthikn · « **Reply #10 on:** 21 May 2003, 05:54 pm »

Quote from: nathanm

Well, the battery only kicks in when the AC power goes out. It's a "save your ass in an emergency and buy some time until you can safely power down your equipment" device not really a "running on clean battery power" device. You'd want something different for that type of thing.

Well, there are two types of UPSes - Online and Standby. You are describing a standby type. I read that there are variations of the online types, but in the online type that is being discussed here, the battery exclusively supplies the power via an inverter. The battery in turn is constantly charged via a trickle charger.

HChi · « **Reply #11 on:** 21 May 2003, 06:33 pm »

There are acutally three types: online, line-interactive, and standby. 'True' online UPS' have the power drawn always from battery through AC-DC-AC conversion. Yes, the ultimate way is to set up a battery farm and wire DC directly into all your components. For people don't mind seriouly mod every single gear of theirs and don't upgrade often, that would be the way to go. For the rest of us, the 'right' online UPS can serve the purpose Karthikn desired without sonic degradation and perhaps some sonic enhancements.

tmd · « **Reply #12 on:** 25 May 2003, 03:12 pm »

I tried a PowerWare unit which was online but only rated at 1KVA some time ago on a friends system. He listened to it for longer than me and thought it 'changed' the sound. He wasn't sure if it improved it or not.
I have been thinking along the same lines as you but haven't tried it since.
The fancy and very expensive PS Audio power plants act like online UPS I think and they seem to get great reviews whenever I read them. One of the things they can do though is to change the frequency of the output.
I would like to try to modify an online UPS but at the moment, I don't have the gear to do it.
One of these days maybe.

Marbles · « **Reply #13 on:** 25 May 2003, 04:10 pm »

Quote from: HChi

There are acutally three types: online, line-interactive, and standby. 'True' online UPS' have the power drawn always from battery through AC-DC-AC conversion. Yes, the ultimate way is to set up a battery farm and wire DC directly into all your components. For people don't mind seriouly mod every single gear of theirs and don't upgrade often, that would be the way to go. For the rest of us, the 'right' online UPS can serve the purpose Karthikn desired without sonic degradation and perhaps some sonic enhancements.

I have a PS Audio PP600 that was good for my front end equipment and some "small" amps, but if you get current hungry amps, then you will lose bass response and dynamics....I learned that the hard way

I tried a BPS Ultra 2.5 (first one made!) and compared it to my PP600 and I liked the PP600 for both my small amps and front end at that time.
If I had the amps then, that I have now, I probably would have kept the BPS. I now only run my front end equipment on my 600.

Also I tried a small APC back ups, a 400 I think, on some smallish size amps and it just lost a lot of dynamics. This of course ran the juice from the AC with power protection circuitry in the way. Not recomended by me for any audio equipment.

DVV · « **Reply #14 on:** 25 May 2003, 04:34 pm »

Quote from: HChi

There are acutally three types: online, line-interactive, and standby. 'True' online UPS' have the power drawn always from battery through AC-DC-AC conversion. Yes, the ultimate way is to set up a battery farm and wire DC directly into all your components. For people don't mind seriouly mod every single gear of theirs and don't upgrade often, that would be the way to go. For the rest of us, the 'right' online UPS can serve the purpose Karthikn desired without sonic degradation and perhaps some sonic enhancements.

Not necessarily the ultimate way. The problem is then shifted to the DC-AC convertor. You have to insert a 50 or 60 Hz sine wave and that's no easy job. Manufacturers use low resolution CPUs for price reasons, so what you end up is a very loose approximation of a sine wave.

In my experience, this is more harm than gain, because the sound you usually get from your audio is typically below what it was without. Of course, it can be done really well, but then the price becomes, er, hard to bear.

What you guys are talking about is a wonderful solution for preamps, tuners, CD players and in fact most things BUT the glutton power amps, which need both large currents AND large supply voltages, which is very hard to do well without paying an arm and a leg.

Stax had a monophonic 100WPC power amp like that some years back. Amp weighed in at around 45 lbs, batteries turned in just short of 200 lbs. They had to keep them on a tray with wheels.

Cheers,
DVV

markC · « **Reply #15 on:** 26 May 2003, 02:26 am »

I am currently using 2 65va 120-25v trannies hooked back to back with a 1uf cap across the senondaries and another .1 uf cap by-passing the 1uf. This is a power filter for my cdp as it only draws about 25 watts. Adding the filter seemed to create a blacker background and more definition of instruments and vocals. And definately quietened, (is that a word?), the slight hum in my speakers.