used 2 channel recommendations for SB3 as pre/source?

mcgsxr · « **on:** 11 Dec 2005, 07:10 pm »

having read quite a bit about this, I am wondering what folks out there that are driving their power amps directly, are using?

Any ideas on what I might buy, in the $500-$800 range, for use in this manner?

I use Visaton open baffle speakers, and do like to use a sub.

I presently have played around with a modded Teac tripath, a JVC EX A1, and a Panny SAXR-10.

I am considering such varied things as used...

Pass Aleph 30
Classe 100 or 101
Panny SAXR-55
Odyssey Stratos

thoughts?

Thanks,

JoshK · « **Reply #1 on:** 11 Dec 2005, 07:27 pm »

Just a couple of comments. THe Stratos is going to be a pretty low impedance for a source to drive but apparently the SB can do it, but running it together with a sub amp will cripple the SB for sure.

I can't imagine the Pan XR55 being any different in sound from the XR10, they are relatively similar in design.

lcrim · « **Reply #2 on:** 12 Dec 2005, 05:33 am »

Mark:
The Panny would put a second volume control in line which messes up using the SB3 as your sole volume control but allows you to use it as your DAC.
W/O a preamp that has a second line level out you have to run the sub off speaker level outs from the amp. Whatever amp you use, w/ your sub off speaker level inputs (assuming your sub has them) the amp will see an impedance that may not be very good for the Visatons.
I know Wayne gets great sound by running an amp off the SB3 digital volume control but I think that presupposes full range speakers. Maybe the sub and the Visatons can coexist on the same speaker line but I'm sceptical.

kfr01 · « **Reply #3 on:** 12 Dec 2005, 05:37 am »

Why not go digital into the Panny 55? Signal stays digital the longest, you can use the bass management features of the panny to control your subwoofer, and you avoid any problems matching output levels.

mcgsxr · « **Reply #4 on:** 12 Dec 2005, 05:57 pm »

Good point JoshK - I am sure that the SAXR10/15 and the 55 likely do sound the same, that is my most likely direction - the 15 belongs in another system, so I cannot keep using it for long!

Lcrim - yeah, using the Panny via the digital input, does then use it for whatever D/A conversion the signal undergoes (it is my understanding that PWM actually does stay digital right up to the binding posts, but then again my understanding of that tech would not fill a thimble...), and does bring the issue of 2 volume controls.

In the past, I have been able to attach my sub amp via speaker level inputs in parallel with my mains (ie a 2nd set of speaker cables off the main amp, to the speaker level ins on the sub amp) with no noticable audible degradation, so I would hope that might be possible...

KFR01 - agreed, digital into the Panny is good, but I am finding that my speakers might need a little more oomph in the bass (especially after reading that ooheadsoo has just recently started using a Stratos...), so the 55 might not measure up in that regard.

That is the real reason for my posting - to get some opinions on older, $500-$800ish amps, that might mate well with the SB as the front end, and the bass shy Visatons (in my config, in my large room).

Thanks to all,

lcrim · « **Reply #5 on:** 12 Dec 2005, 06:01 pm »

kfr01:
The Panny has a volume control as it is receiver. Whether you use the Panny's ability to act as a DAC by using its digital input, it still controls the volume. The sound quality gained by using the SB3's digital volume control only is probably lost. It may be that setting the Panny volume to wide open and then using the SB3's digital volume control would not harm sound quality but I don't think so. Gain in the digital realm is not as straight forward as it is in analog.

kfr01 · « **Reply #6 on:** 12 Dec 2005, 07:13 pm »

Quote from: lcrim

kfr01:
The Panny has a volume control as it is receiver. Whether you use the Panny's ability to act as a DAC by using its digital input, it still controls the volume. The sound quality gained by using the SB3's digital volume control only is probably lost. It may be that setting the Panny volume to wide open and then using the SB3's digital volume control would not harm sound quality but I don't think so. Gain in the digital realm is not as straight forward as it is in analog.

So, Panny volume control quality < SB3 volume control quality?

mcgsxr: I take it the Stratos is known to have better bass response than the panny digital? If so, why? i.e., larger power supply?

Forgive my rather basic questions, I'm also trying to make a similar buying decision.

Wayne1 · « **Reply #7 on:** 12 Dec 2005, 07:56 pm »

The SA-XR-10 and the SA-XR55 are two completely different beasts. The SA-XR10 uses different chips for the digital processing than does the SA-XR55. There is a different power supply, different programming, different crossover frequency, different speaker connectors, etc. They both use the same Equibit technology but there are a couple of generations of development between them.

As far as volume controls, the Panasonic receivers control part of the volume by a digital chip, the rest is controlled by changing the voltage feeding the ouput FETs. I would NOT suggest keeping the volume up on the Panny.

Use the digital input on the Panny and use it's volume control. Use the digital output on the SB3 and defeat the volume control in the software of Slimserver.

The SA-XR55 has PLENTY of bass. The "digital" bass is different than the "analog" bass of the Stratos. It is "tighter".

I use a SA-XR70 to drive VMPS 626Rs. No problem with bass. Of cource I also use a Larger Subwoofer with a few kilowatts behind it for the last couple of octaves for HT.

A Squeezebox with analog mods does not like long interconnects or high capacitance. Keep the output cable very short to an amp. If you want to run a sub, you CAN run the SB analog outs to a crossover. Then you are lengthening the signal path and getting away from what makes the sound of the SB mods so special.

You have to make up your mind what is most important to you. Using the analog outs of the SB to get the clearest, shortest signal possible, or "improving" the bass of your speakers.

At this point I would suggest you use a Panny SA-XR-55. It is a bit dry at first and it could use some mods

to improve it. It should also be the least expensive way and keep the signal path the purest. Add a powered sub to the system. Run your mains full range and adjust the crossover to the sub the fill in where you may think they are "weak"

RoadTripper · « **Reply #8 on:** 12 Dec 2005, 10:37 pm »

And how about in the case of a Bolder modified Panny XR45?? Any change to the volume control recommendations?

mcgsxr · « **Reply #9 on:** 13 Dec 2005, 02:53 pm »

Thanks for the tips all.

KFR01 - not sure that the Stratos is or is not better than the Panny 55, just reading a couple of things posted by ooheadsoo, who uses the same drivers I do, and drawing a conclusion or two... I know that he is finding the Stratos a better match for the Visatons, than the Sharp he was using previously.

I would think that the Stratos has a much larger power supply than the SAXR-55, but since I own neither, I am just thinking.

Sounds like, for me, the best approach (with one eye clearly on ROI, and the other on simplicity and decent sound...) is to get the Panny (found one locally new for $375 canadian or around $323 US - sure, I could get it for $100 cheaper on J&R, but the hassles of getting it up to me here in Canada would eat that $$ pretty quickly) is to get the full Bolder mods on my SB3, so that I can use it short term via the digital output, and longer term, when $$ allows, I can use the analog outs to a power amp, should my system change to allow for that.

Thanks for the straight goods Wayne!

Look for me to pester you for a time to do the mods, and pick up a PS off you, early in the new year.

Carlman · « **Reply #10 on:** 13 Dec 2005, 05:35 pm »

I'm borrowing the SB3 from 'loanwolf'

and will shortly be using an Eastern Electric Minimax 8-watt amp with it for my office system. It'll be a really nice office system... with Kit41 monitors and the squeezebox as a source.... I'm really looking forward to hearing this combo...

I love having the SB on 'random' and just listen to tunes all the time.... and FF through the ones I don't like/want to hear.... and can lookup who the artist is... It's like having my own satellite radio station!

(But with excellent sound quality, of course)

I'm currently using a Sharp EX-111 but if the Minimax has enough power, I won't need it since the new arrangement will take up a lot less room than the way I have it now.

Many thanks to LonewolfNY42 for the opportunity to play with this little gem... I wasn't really interested in it before I had it connected and 'saw the light'

Now I'll have the best of everything, small, excellent sound and uncomplicated.

Wayne1 · « **Reply #11 on:** 13 Dec 2005, 06:57 pm »

Seminarian,

I would suggest you use it the same way. Have the SB run full volume of defeat the volume control in Slimserver and run the digital output into the Panny.

Welcome to using the SB Carl. I have about 10,000 or so songs ripped on my hard drives. I think of it now as a radio station with no repeats or commercials. If I am in the mood for jazz, or prog rock, I just have to hit a couple of buttons and then I have many hours of enjoyment to look forward to.

If you like the sound now, wait until you get a chance to hear a modded one. I think the guys from GAS will agree that you have heard nothing yet.