[rajacat]

very nice thread.

i'm curious of what the results would be with the digital only mods using the sb as a transport.

It would be interesting to compare SQ of a SB digital mod only that uses a quality NOS DAC to an analogue moded SB. You can now get a decent DAC for under $400. Also compare a stock SB that uses the quality NOS DAC to any moded SB including the $1000 power supply.

[Rashiki]

The Amp Hour rating tells you how much amperage is available when discharged evenly over a 20 hour period. The amp hour rating is cumulative, so in order to know how many constant amps the battery will output for 20 hours, you have to divide the amp hour rating by 20. Example: If a battery has an amp hour rating of 10, dividing by 20 = 0.5. Such a battery can carry a 1/2 amp load for 20 hours before dropping to 10.5 volts. (10.5 volts is the fully discharged level, at which point the battery needs to be recharged.)

According to this article:

http://www.circuitcellar.com/library/print/0602/3.htm

The typical SLA can provide an average discharge rate of 20% of the "Amp Hour" rating. So, the 10Ah battery that Vinnie uses should be able to supply an average of 2A until discharged. Since the SB has been measured to draw no more than 1.1A and the stock power supply is rated at 2A, the SLA should be fine.

 -Rob

[alana106]

Hi,

  Not sure if I missed something. It seems that I have the utility installed, but I'm not sure if I understand how to select the different Firmware versions that exist in the Firmware folder.   I have attempted to hold the brightness button, but after the recycle, I remain on version 28.  I was hoping to select version 15, which does exist in the folder, but I am never prompted to select a file version.   Would appreciate help on what I'm failing to do.

Thanks,
Alan

[alana106]

Please disregard my reply above.... Not sure how I dd it, but I apparently replied to the wrong thread.

  SORRY!

[Dave G]

This is a belated follow-up to Woodsyi's report from last Friday.  That was my Red Wine modded SB3 that got into the mix.  Woodsyi did an excellent job of recapping the equipment comparisons and reporting on what we all heard with the different power supplies, line conditioners, and SBs.  I don't disagree with any of his appraisals, but can offer a few observations:

1.   Each of the AC power supplies produced an obvious improvement over the straight-from-the-wall-socket sound.  I'm fairly new to this hobby and had never before done any comparative listening involving line conditioners and power supplies.  I wouldn't say that I was skeptical coming in, but I had anticipated the differences would be more subtle than they were.  To any one out there who is wondering whether power supplies can make a difference, my take is that they clearly can make a significant difference.  I missed the second session involving the Ultimate Power Supply ( ), but I'm pretty confident that Robert's and Woodsyi's reports are accurate, since they heard the same things with the other power supplies that I did.

2.   I really liked the Felicia.  I would describe its sound just as Gordy did -- "a bit softer sounding, perhaps more rolled off or even tube like in it's presentation" -- and I liked what it did.

3.   I have a couple of Red Wine battery power products in my system (SB3 and Clari-T), but I'll admit that I bought them on faith (and a LOT of Audio Circle reading!).  When Woodsyi asked if I'd bring my SB3 over to compare it with his Bolder modded SB2 using different power supplies, I really wasn't sure how it would stand up.  Well, it did just fine.  It took Woodsyi a few tries to figure out how to use one SB remote to control 2 units, but once he had that down, the SBs were perfectly synchronized (try that with non-PC audio!).  Woodsyi handled the toggle switch and was the only one who knew which was which.  Initially, as Woodsyi reports, there was a sense that one of the units, which turned out to be the Bolder SB2 powered by a lab grade power supply, was very slightly louder and had more presence.  However, once the SBs were perfectly synched, I found that I could not hear any difference at all when we toggled back and forth from one unit to the other.   I don't know that the perfect synching had anything to do with it, but to me the two SBs semed to change from "slightly different" to "the same" once they got synched.  

4.   The Red Wine SB3 was not there for the second session with the Bolder UPS.  But given given how much better Robert and Woodsyi thought the UPS was than the power supplies I heard, I suspect the Red Wine SB3 might, just might ( ), have come in an honorable second to a Bolder SB powered by the UPS.

Thanks for putting this together, Woodsyi.  

Dave

[95bcwh]

4. The Red Wine SB3 was not there for the second session with the Bolder UPS. But given given how much better Robert and Woodsyi thought the UPS was than the power supplies I heard, I suspect the Red Wine SB3 might, just might (  ), have come in an honorable second to a Bolder SB powered by the UPS.
..

The UPS is $1000, the RWA battery cost less than $200.
Even taking into account the law of diminishing returns, I would still expect the UPS to be at least 2 times better than the RWA battery.

One question: Does the UPS need another $1000 power conditioner? Or it can be plug straight into the wall?

barry

[miklorsmith]

Some conditioning will be necessary, according to what I've read.  And, expensive power cords are really beneficial.

I'm feeling pretty good about my RWA units with wall-wart bypass.

[Vinnie R.]

I don't know that the perfect synching had anything to do with it, but to me the two SBs semed to change from "slightly different" to "the same" once they got synched.

Hi Dave,

Thanks for posting your observations.  Perfectly synching and then using an A/B without knowing what unit was playing sounds like a nice and fair way to do it...

Out of curiousity, was yours battery modded SB3, or modded with just the analog output mods (sorry, I've modded too many of these things to remember   )

Thanks again,

[95bcwh]

Some conditioning will be necessary, according to what I've read.  And, expensive power cords are really beneficial.

I'm feeling pretty good about my RWA units with wall-wart bypass.

Ok, then this UPS is really a "TRUE AUDIOPHILE" product, it needs another $1000 power conditioner with perhaps another $500 power cord.

I don't have to listen to it, I'm 200% coinvinced that it will outperform the RWA battery. I'm jealous because for the time being I don't have $3000 to spend on a music source....  

One last question (this is a stupid one), in order to use Bolder's UPS, do you have to modify the inner circuit of the SB3 which render the stock power supply unusable? Or it's a plug and play thing just like the stock power supply and you can easily swap out either one to compare the sound quality?

[Den]

I attended each listening session.  I missed the first round of the power conditioner comparison at the beginning of the Saturday session, so I don't have a good handle on the power conditioners used, but I heard the differences between the various Squeezebox configurations.  

I won't wax poetic about it.  When A/B-ing back and forth frequently between the Red Wine battery and Bolder units, the battery unit has a more relaxed, darker sound.  The Bolder is the attention grabber, almost like it's louder, but the levels appeared to be matched, and specs indicate that each unit's output is ~1V.  Is one of the units dark or bright and the other absolutely neutral?  I dunno.  Probably not.  Each sounds good and each would probably be more at home in some systems than others.  I would want to live with each one for several days before making a choice.  

So, maybe what we're hearing is Auricap vs. Sonicap, or maybe it's battery vs. AC.

Wayne did a Battery vs. AC experiment and found the AC to sound more dynamic.  Each type of PS sends 5V into the Squeezebox's internal PS, where it is turned into 14V and 3.3V, as well as 5V, for the various sections of the Squeezebox.  
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=23291&highlight=battery

However, it seems that there are more factors involved when comparing an AC unit to the Red Wine battery unit because the internal 14V PS is pretty much gutted, AFAIK, and it is fed 12V from the battery.
http://www.redwineaudio.com/SB2_SB3_Mods.html

6) Removal of the 14V power feed from on-board switching[linear in the SB3] power supply (which feeds the critical 3.3V and 5V regulators used for the internal DAC as well as the SPDIF output buffer), and replace it with the 12V supply line from the external 12V SLA battery enclosure...a much cleaner choice of power supply!  

7) Feed the SB2's 5V main input with a linear regulated 5V generated from an external 12V SLA battery enclosure.

8 ) Install additional low ESR capacitance to the 5V input (filtering)

How does this affect everything?  I dunno, I'm not an EE. . .wait. . .shuffles though stack of sheepskins. . .no, not an EE, but this seems to be another significant variable. . .which brings me to my Squeezebox.

Mine was the Red Wine unit with mods to the analog output stage only.
AFAIK, these mods are pretty similar to the Bolder output mods: upgrade the DAC chip and RCA jacks; connect the DAC to the RCA's with a single coupling cap per channel(Auricap or Sonicap.)  
My unit does not have the mods listed above(6, 7, 8 ), nor does it have the internal 14V PS rebuilt with premium caps, etc., as found in the Bolder unit.  So, when comparing Woods' Bolder SB2 and my SB3 on the Bolder UPS, it was feeding my completely stock internal 14V PS as deemed adequate by Slim Devices.  You can find their feelings on PS upgrades here:
http://www.seanadams.com

Nonetheless, some have insisted that there is a significant measurable and/or audible difference when using a linear supply for the external DC input.
I respectfully disagree.
I'm willing to accept that there may be audible phenomena not revealed in the following test, but I have yet to find any way of hearing or measuring them myself.

Yeah, every PS we auditioned was better than the stock 5V wall wart, but the Exact Power conditioner did make a big improvement with it.  Bargain of the year for those who already have a good power conditioner.


p.s.  Wayne isn't the only one who makes spendy AC power supply upgrades for components.
http://www.naim-audio.com/products/hicap.html
http://www.naim-audio.com/products/supercap.html

. . .and Vinnie isn't the only one powering DAC's with batteries.
http://www.ack-industries.com/technical.html#q3

The dAck! is designed for cost-effective ultra-high performance. To approach the performance level of the battery supply, one would require a highly-regulated power supply that is both bulky and expensive. This would dramatically raise the price of the system while decreasing performance. The battery supply improves portability of the unit and improves its performance.

The power consumption of the circuit and size of the cells have been optimized to achieve a friendly medium: interactivity, bulk, lifespan, and play time have been carefully balanced for the end user. We do not sacrifice dynamics for the ultra-quiet background of the battery supply.

Regarding the issue of current, it seems that the Squeezebox PS need only supply ~1A,   3A peak.  So the simple question is, will a 12V 10Ah SLA battery do this, and for how many hours.  

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=24771.msg219713#219713&highlight=#219713
Squeezebox Power Requirements

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=24771&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=10

If the power supply is drawing a maximum of about 1 amp steady state, I would design for 2 to 3 amps for those current surges that can very brief. . .

 d.b.

[Jampot]

Den, Bravo!

Thanks for a very lucid and well referenced post.

Jim

[woodsyi]

I won't wax poetic about it.

But you were so poetic with Nordstrom and K-mart metaphors the other day.   I heard a few tidbits from Den about the demise of Harmonic Dischord and the immergence of AC.  Welcome "back" Den and post a little more often instead of just lurking.    See you later when we compare SB with other PC audio format(s).  I am thinking May.

[Dave G]

Den:  I agree with Jampot -- that's an excellent post.  It was nice meeting you last week.  Hope to see you again soon.

Vinnie:  My Red Wine SB3 used in these comparisons has the battery power supply.

Dave

[Occam]

....
2. I really liked the Felicia. I would describe its sound just as Gordy did -- "a bit softer sounding, perhaps more rolled off or even tube like in it's presentation" -- and I liked what it did.
...

Hey Dave,

I believe that that 'tubey warmth' you describe is largely attributable to the fact that I'm a cheap SOB. As I worked with JoshK, Tianguis, and Gordy (among others) on developing Felicia, we found that the choice of the capacitors used, main and bypass, had a tremendous effect on the resultant subjective sound. After numerous itterations we'd settled on a Solen as the main cap, and Auricaps for bypass, .47, .1 & .01uf. And then we evaluated Jantzen caps, imported by PartsExpress. Slotting them in for all but the .01uf (Jantzen doesn't make them that small), we found them to have all the resolution of the previous configuration, and even more that 'tubey warmth' often attributed to Auricaps, along with deeper, beter defined bass. As the large Jantzen was the same price as the equivalent Solen, and a .47 & .1uf Jantzen totaled $1.50 vs the $10 for the same Auricaps, I went cheap and tubey. (this was also in the context of evaluating on Tianguis's very high resolution system).
For those who prefer a less warm sound, using a Sonicap, or others, for bypass duties would substatially address those issues. I'm quite flummoxed by the effect that these caps in a dang power conditioner on the subjective results. Nominally, they're not in the signal path. Go figure....
Personally, I'd much prefer (and would be far less conflicted) to use a technically justified cap like the super low inductance Epcos stacked film polypropolenes, but sadly, empirical verification inevitably trumps even the best of our 'thought experiments'.

YMMV,
Paul