[ajzepp]

I'm very strongly considering allocating my funds toward a superior 2-channel system as opposed to a 5.1 set-up like I'm running now. I was just wondering, though, what happens to the DD/DTS mix (and particularly the .1 LFE information) when you run it through a stereo preamp via an analog connection? Is there any info that is lost along the way?

I recently went to demo some gear at a local high end dealer, and he was using only 2-channel gear. He ran LOTR through it and it sounded amazing, which is sort of what got me considering his advice to go for the best 2-channel equipment I can afford.

Can you guys help me out here?

[ScottMayo]

I'm very strongly considering allocating my funds toward a superior 2-channel system as opposed to a 5.1 set-up like I'm running now. I was just wondering, though, what happens to the DD/DTS mix (and particularly the .1 LFE information) when you run it through a stereo preamp via an analog connection? Is there any info that is lost along the way?

A lot of systems will downmix from 5.1 to 2 channel on demand - that's generally the job of the preamp or the receiver. If those two speakers are good, full-range speakers, you won't lose much - and what you gain will be breathtaking. If you go to 2.1 sound - two good speakers and a subwoofer - you will lose almost nothing. Most movies don't use the back channels alot anyway, and getting real detail and imaging out of the front two speakers more than makes up for the loss of front-to-back imaging.

Ultimately, though, if you like movies, or get into 5.1 channel music, you'll want to move back towards a 5.1 system - keeping your new, good speakers, and adding more. The rear channels don't have to be as good as your front channels; you can spend less money them.

Pick a budget; that will decide what you end up with.  

[ajzepp]

Thanks for the reply, Scott.....To give you a specific example, I currently run an Outlaw Audio 950 pre/pro. For the money, it's quite good. But for the same money I could have something like the Anthem TLP-1. It's basically a 2-channel preamp/tuner that incorporates low pass/high pass filters for use of monitor speakers and 1 or 2 subwoofers. (I've just always preferred the sound of a monitor/sub combination over a floorstander.)  So basically, assuming I get a nice amp to mate with my mains, can I get the same 2-channel performance out of a pre/pro as I could by spending the same amt on just a stereo preamp? I've had several different combinations of speakers and components over the past five years or so, and what I"ve found is that it's much easier to find satisfaction with HT than it is with 2-channel audio. That's what I really want to focus on this time, so I really want to be smart about where I spend my money.

[ScottMayo]

Thanks for the reply, Scott.....To give you a specific example, I currently run an Outlaw Audio 950 pre/pro. For the money, it's quite good. But for the same money I could have something like the Anthem TLP-1. It's basically a 2-channel preamp/tuner that incorporates low pass/high pass filters for use of monitor speakers and 1 or 2 subwoofers. (I've just always preferred the sound of a monitor/sub combination over a floorstander.) So basically, assuming I get a nice amp to mate with my mains, can I get the same 2-channel performance out of a pre/pro as I could by spending the same amt on just a stereo preamp? I've had several different combinations of speakers and components over the past five years or so, and what I"ve found is that it's much easier to find satisfaction with HT than it is with 2-channel audio. That's what I really want to focus on this time, so I really want to be smart about where I spend my money.

The biggest effect on sound is speakers. I'm going to assume you have something you like there, so I won't get to try to convince you of the merits of buying speakers from me. That aside, if you are looking for better sound, it's almost always found by moving up in speakers.

Barring that, if you are running Outlaw electronics, yes there are improvements to be made, but they might not be huge, and the cost starts to go up pretty quickly. Outlaw seems to have a nice price point.

After speakers, next biggest effect is pre/pro and amp. Spend the money on a good stereo amp or monoblocks, something you can keep for years. Again, Outlaw has a decent reputation; and you haven't mentioned a budget (or what you have for speakers) so I don't know if it's worth moving up in amps. If you have bloody excellent speakers, it probably is.

I can't wholeheartedly tell you to abandon a 5.1 pre/pro for a stereo preamp. In "bypass" mode, which your pre/pro has, the signal is passed straight through with a minimum of muss and fuss, and it's probably being kept fairly clean. Shame on Outlaw if it isn't. Pouring a lot into a stereo-only preamp might not gain you much over that. A lot depends on how well your speakers resolve.

You need to set your budget. I can recommend an absolutely stunningly wonderful system for 2 channel, with awe-inspiring 5.1 capability, for about $25,000. If you're looking to spend $3,000, that doesn't help much.

(And I'll say this once because everyone here expects it of me - treating the room is 9 times out of 10 the biggest improvement you can get. And sometimes it doesn't cost very much. If the room is untreated and you really want to kick up your rig's performance, start there. If that's an option for you, look at my website, I won't go into it here.)

[ajzepp]

thanks again, Scott.....The blueprint you have layed out is pretty consistent with what I've been thinking. And I'm not trying to be furtive with regard to speakers or budget, it's just that both are up in the air. I'm planning on bringing some Merlins into my listening room early next month. I grew up in Upstate NY and have been familiar with that compnay for quite a while......so I'm excited to finally have the means to bring them in for a listen. So naturally, assuming I love them, they will deserve better gear than what I'm currently running. Bobby Palkovic, owner of Merlin, gave me some very good direction today.....so I basically just need to figure out if I want to stay with a 5.1 channel system or just build an excellent stereo rig around the Merlins. I have read some reviews on various pre/pros, and they also echo what you said above with regard to the stereo bypass feature and 2-channel quality. With my preference for a good monitor over floorstanders, it creates some bass management issues with the stereo bypass feature, which is basically what led me to consider the idea of a stereo preamp to begin with. With regard to my budget, I can't say it's unlimited, but it's certainly very flexible. I should have upwards of 10k to put into my system over the next 6-8 months. That doesn't mean I wish to use that entire budget, but it should be available to me should I really be moved in one direction or another.

Anyway, the bottom line is just that I know I can do better with 2-channel music and I really want a solution to that issue. Like you said, with speakers being such a large factor, hopefully a higher end pair will solve much of the problem.

[ScottMayo]

In your price range you shouldn't - and won't - have to compromise on bass issues. Is the desire to stick with monitors based on a space issue?

[ajzepp]

The only time I preferred (read: needed) a floorstander was when I moved into a new home a couple years ago and ended up with a very open listening room. There was just way too much open space, and it swallowed up my little Paradigms whole. I ended up with Studio/100s and they were much better. But in a small to moderate sized room - such as I have now - I just fall in love with a monitors ability to disappear. It doesn't matter if it's in my home environment or in a dealer showroom.....my ears have just always preferred the little guys with a sub. I'm all but convinced that audio nirvana for me will be when I find the perfect monitor - hence my desire to get Palkovic's speaker in here. I've got some Von Schweikert VR-1s I'm playing with now, and still have my Magnepan MMGs....another great little speaker. I love both of them. But I'm looking for the speaker that can combine the realism and "open, airy-ness" of the Maggies with the dynamics and fullness of a more traditional box speaker. The Maggies really come close.....I love the line and am still considering going to larger ones. But the Merlins are calling to me.

[Watson]

The only thing you need to watch for when listening to 5.1 channel audio on a 2 channel rig is making sure that the LFE channel does not disappear.

Home theatre receivers like your Outlaw are always fine.  They will downmix properly for you, but you may be able to get better sound quality by going to a dedicated stereo preamp instead of keeping the Outlaw.

The thing is, many people don't realize that the "stereo downmix" feature of their DVD player usually throws away the LFE channel.  Try it with a test DVD if you don't believe me.  Appropriate test files can also be downloaded here:
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/nicolas.phil/fr/download.html

If you're not going to be using a home theatre receiver, you want to use a DVD player that has onboard bass management.  Do not use the player's "stereo downmix" feature, rather use the 5.1 channel outputs and tell the DVD player you only have left/right front speakers and nothing else.  Test the setup to make sure you can hear the LFE channel.  Adjust the levels of the rear channels (which you're hearing through your front speakers) to suit your tastes.  Different players use a different volume adjustment when redirecting the rears to the front.

[ajzepp]

Watson: Thanks for that....if I end up going 2-channel, that's exactly the type of thing I want to be aware of. The only way I could enjoy movies in stereo would be to make sure I still get the impact of the bass via my subwoofers. I appreciate you explaining that to me....I wasn't sure how that would work.

[Watson]

BTW, there is another pair of good test tracks here:
http://www.sr.se/multikanal/english/e_index.stm
Scroll all the way down to Multichannelcheck.  The tracks are in Swedish but it's not hard to figure out what they're doing.  The rear levels are at 100% (i.e. they are the same volume as the mains), but some players like Sony will attenuate the volume a bit when redirecting that to the front, which makes a certain amount of sense.  As I mentioned before, you can always play around with your DVP's bass management levels if you'd prefer the redirected rear sounds to be a bit louder.  The phantom center channel should be the same volume as the mains.

If you combine those test tracks with the bass channel tests I linked to earlier, you have enough test tracks to ensure your 2 channel system is configured properly, the levels are accurate, and you're not losing any of the 5.1 channel information.

It's also worth mentioning that there are virtualization algorithms like Dolby Virtual Speaker which can be used to simulate 5.1 channel surround localization out of 2 speakers.  Most higher end DVPs have some form of this, but only Dolby Virtual Speaker is worth anything in my opinion (Dolby Virtual Surround, aka. TruSurround, and the rest tend to introduce obvious artifacts).  Even DVS is gimmicky and a bit "boingy" and I personally don't recommend it.