Kenwood VRS-N8100 receiver + Magnepan MMG experience

litezen · « **on:** 12 Jul 2005, 05:22 pm »

Hi,

I've just set up a system with the Kenwood VRS-N8100 (similar to the VRS-7100), powering a pair of Magnepan MMG front speakers.

I haven't come across any posts mentioning this specific combo, so I thought I'll share my experience with them so far - in case anyone finds it helpful.

My goal was to replace my low-to-midfi system with a best-bang-for-buck audio system that I would be happy with for a long time, with a limited budget.

I don't have thousands to pour into audio, but I do wanted good sound - with speakers that 'disappear', and music that appear 'live'.

My initial system: an Onkyo TX-SR600 receiver, with Onkyo SKS-HT500 speakers. Total cost: $500 refurbished. It beats regular HTIB sets, but it doesn't sound that great, especially for music.

First, I acquired the MMGs direct from Magnepan about a month ago. I did a lot of research before getting them, and once one they have been positioned properly and given some time to burn in, they are amazing.

The Onkyo TX-SR600 powered them just fine. However, the system seems to sound abit grainy at low volumes - I had to crank it up a bit to about 65-70 db for it to sound good. But that's hard to do with a baby in the house, and a wife that yells at me to turn it down even at 65db levels.

Then I just acquired a Kenwood VRS-N8100, with TI's PurePath technology last weekend. The Magnepan MMGs are rather inefficient speakers, 4Ohms with 86dB/W/M sensitivity - so I was worried that the combination won't work. Someone else on the forum had issues with getting the Kenwood VRS to work with the Martin Logan electrostatics which has pretty low impedance as well.

What a contrast. The Kenwood weighs 10lbs vs 27lbs for the Onkyo, and it's less than half the height.

However, I'm glad to report that this combination works fine! Granted, I've not played it real loud yet, but at normal and low listening levels, the audio experience is brain-melting beautiful!

The graininess at low levels appears to be gone, and the sound now appears to be 'effort-less'. The Kenwood advertises their 32-bit SHARC processor and high-resolution volume control - that probably made the difference.

Audio bliss (for me at least) for less than $1k.

Just in case my mind's playing tricks (I've read somewhere that, as long as decent amps aren't clipping, they sound the same or very similar), we're going to be having a amp and speaker shoot-out this weekend to compare the various amps and speakers, specifically switching between the Onkyo and the Kenwood to see if a few pair of ears present will be able to hear any differences.

I'll post the results if anyone's interested.

dave_c · « **Reply #1 on:** 12 Jul 2005, 05:32 pm »

That Kenwood looks pretty cool. I'm a fan of the PurePath technology. . .its used in the Panasonic receivers as well. Did you get to use the Ethernet Jack to play streaming media? How does it work? That makes the unit pretty attractive to me, but I'm not sure how it works. Let us know!

woodsyi · « **Reply #2 on:** 12 Jul 2005, 05:34 pm »

Welcome to AC Litezen.

Please post what you find when you do your shootout. Whereever we are on the spending scale, I find the ACers to be value conscious group. I would be interested in your findings. More so if you throw in a known power amp via preouts to the mix.

litezen · « **Reply #3 on:** 12 Jul 2005, 06:08 pm »

Dear dave_c,

I'm pretty impressed with PurePath too - same TI 5182 chip that the Panasonic SA-XR series uses.

With a digital audio source, the sound stays digital all the way until the 'amp' which acts like a power DAC, before output to the speaker terminals.

With a digital input, with nothing playing, I cranked up the Kenwood receiver all the way to max. I hear NOTHING with my ears next to the speakers. With a analog input (nothing connected), at max volume, I hear a slight hiss with my ears near the speakers.

Yup, I've set up the ethernet jack. You'll need to run software on the server PC (it runs as a service, so you don't see it unless you're configuring the media list). It plays videos, music and pictures. I tried some DivX and mp3s - video is nice and smooth; have not listened carefully to the mp3 output yet, but the Kenwood is supposed to have this 'Supreme' audio technology that restores lost detail to compressed audio, so it should sound decent.

It also supports other audio codecs, such as OGG, WAV and WMA.

There has been at least 2 firmware updates available for this receiver, flashable via the Ethernet jack from the PC. I think they help fixed some DiVX playback issues.

Dear woodsyi,

I've read that the Magnepans really shine with monster power amps.

However, I don't have access to one for testing. AFAIK, the Onkyo is 85 wpc, and the Kenwood is 75 wpc before THD becomes significant. The Onkyo can drive the MMGs to uncomfortable listening levels without clipping. I will crank up the Kenwood when I get home this evening (before the wife does

) and take readings with a SPL meter

litezen · « **Reply #4 on:** 12 Jul 2005, 07:32 pm »

Quote from: woodsyi

Welcome to AC Litezen.

... Whereever we are on the spending scale, I find the ACers to be value conscious group. ...

Thank you - looks like I've found the right place to hang out!

dave_c · « **Reply #5 on:** 12 Jul 2005, 09:53 pm »

That's cool that it can play DivX. Do you know if it can play DVD's from folders as well?

I wonder how so many of us slept on this unit. . .sounds like it could be my next receiver!

BTW - If you ever want to get to the next level I highly recommend talking to Steve Nugent at Empirical Audio about getting some mods done. He did the power supply, digital inputs and power output stage on my XR45 and it really made a big difference. That was Steve's first XR45 too so I can imagine that he's come up with some improvements to the mod as well.

litezen · « **Reply #6 on:** 12 Jul 2005, 10:55 pm »

Ok, I've had a chance to push the Kenwood and MMG combo. At my listening position 10 feet away, playing a TBM Jazz recording, and volume set at -20 (Max is -1), I'm getting peaks of 94 dB, C-weighted.

It doesn't appear to be distorted yet at this setting, but this combo can play uncomfortably loud.

I'll need to verify this, but I read somewhere that it's able to play decrypted VOBs that has been renamed to MPG (according to the specs, it plays MPEG1 and MPEG2 vids)

brj · « **Reply #7 on:** 12 Jul 2005, 11:13 pm »

Welcome to AC, litezen!

The VRS-N8100 sounds like an interesting receiver in its own right, and even more so if it offers as attractive a base platform for mods as the Panasonic receivers.

I goggled a few sites looking for info, but I've seen very inconsistant data. Can you confirm:

1) The number of amps and their power into a given load? (I've seen 6.1 and 7.1, and 100W and 130W)

2) If you are using a digital input or ethernet, can the signal completely bypass the DSP?

3) Can you command it to use 4 amps to bi-amp a 2 channel rig, ala the Panny SA-XR70?

By the way, there seems to be a pretty good review thread on AVS.

Based on a few comments and this page, it appears that it might run Linux internally, as all of the tools listed are related to the control of embedded controllers. Now if they offer Linux server support, I'll really get interested!

Thanks for the review!

litezen · « **Reply #8 on:** 12 Jul 2005, 11:49 pm »

Thanks, brj!

For your questions:
1. The Kenwood has 6 amps. It's listed as 7.1, because it has pre-outs for back surround L/R, so with an external amp for those, the Kenwood can support 7.1.
For the power, here's the cut-and-paste from the specs in the manual:

70 watts per channel minimum RMS, both channels driven,
at 8 Ω from 20 Hz to 20 kHz with no more than 0.7% total
harmonic distortion. (FTC)

100 watts per channel minimum RMS, both channels driven,
at 6 Ω from 20 Hz to 20 kHz with no more than 0.7% total
harmonic distortion.

Rated power output during STEREO operation
Effective power output during STEREO operation ... 130 W + 130 W
(1 kHz, 10% T.H.D. at 6 Ω)
Effective power output during SURROUND operation
FRONT ....................................... ............................ 100 W + 100 W
......................... (1 kHz, 0.5% T.H.D. at 6 Ω one channel driven)
FRONT ....................................... ............................ 130 W + 130 W
(1 kHz, 10% T.H.D. at 6 Ω one channel driven)
CENTER ....................................... ....................................... .. 100 W
(1 kHz, 0.5% T.H.D. at 6 Ω one channel driven)
CENTER ....................................... ....................................... .. 130 W
(1 kHz, 10% T.H.D. at 6 Ω one channel driven)
SURROUND ....................................... ................... 100 W + 100 W
(1 kHz, 0.5% T.H.D. at 6 Ω one channel driven)
130 W + 130 W
(1 kHz, 10% T.H.D. at 6 Ω one channel driven)
SURROUND BACK/SUBWOOFER ..................................... 100 W
(1 kHz, 0.5% T.H.D. at 6 Ω one channel driven)
130 W
(1 kHz, 10% T.H.D. at 6 Ω one channel driven)
Total harmonic distortion .......................... 0.09% (1 kHz, 50 W, 6 Ω)

2. It has Tone 'Off' settings, and a 'Stereo' mode with no DSP processing... does that answer your question or is there something more specific that I should look for?

3. Inherently, it doesn't have the bi-amp feature that the SA-XR70 has.

Yup, I read the complete 18-page Kenwood VRS-N8100 thread in AVS before I bought this thing

I'll be great if someone could hack the VRS-N8100 firmware to add functionality, or even enhance their serverside software (which is based on XML files, and Java, from what I've read - so it's an easier task).

dave_c · « **Reply #9 on:** 13 Jul 2005, 12:07 am »

I'm in the middle of reading that thread but needed to take a break! It's good to know that there's an active community out there. It was also encouraging to read that there are products using the same multimedia decoding chipsets with hacked software. If the software gets improved I can see a bigger demand for the receiver.

Anyone see good deals on it recently? Sounds like we missed out on the clearance sales. Less than $200 in some cases!

Best I've seen on Froogle was $273 I think.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #10 on:** 13 Jul 2005, 07:53 am »

Hey litezen,

I'm driving the MMG's rediculously well with the JVC F10 for the past few months...the combo of 'digital' amplification with iron grip control of those 48' panels is other worldly.

However, even after full burn in of the MMG's, and proper positioning...I found them wanting vs. other good contenders in the price range (Monitor Audio, and Infinity offerings, I'm thinking of). Not clear or indistinct enough...tho the scale offered in large scale orchestral and big playing music certainly showed it's promise.

Next time you have another $386.00 you can cobble and direct to your set-up...go get a custom Mye stand for your MMG's. I helped Grant Vander Mye with the specs on the first pair - which I bought. No one had ever bought them before as they paid $550 and mistakenly thought spending another $386 (delivered) was foolish. It's not foolish - it just shows the outstanding value these are to begin with.

The upgrade is remarkable - it is now far more dynamic, more snap, better, taughter basslines.

Welcome to AC...hope to hear more from you in the future.

TCG

litezen · « **Reply #11 on:** 19 Jul 2005, 06:59 am »

Over the weekend, we had a chance to compare the Onkyo TX-SR600 (analog amp) with the Kenwood VRS-N8100 (digital amp).

Testing was done using the Magnepan MMG speakers. Each amp had its own cables running to the speakers with their own pair of banana plugs, and swapping amps was achieved by just swapping banana plugs at the back of each speaker. This gave us a lag of about 20-25 seconds between switchings. Both amps were calibrated using test tones and a SPL meter so that their volume level should be practically the same.

First, we wanted to determine if the amps sounded the same or different. There were 3 of us listening, and none of us have much experience listening to high-end gear.

We didn't do a blind test; we always knew which amp we were listening to.

First impressions were that all 3 of us agreed that the amps sounded different. Which one sounded better was much tougher and more subjective - it was hard for us to tell which sounded better.

The Onkyo appeared to sound "better" (not necessarily more accurate) in some instances! But we think the Kenwood sounded better generally.

It's difficult for me, but I will try and describe the differences in what I hear. Both amps appear to have different sound characteristics. When sounds were played through the Onkyo, all instruments sound as though they were on the same horizontal plane. The sounds from the Kenwood almost seem more 3-dimensional. The Kenwood also sounds as though it has more "stuff" in it... it was hasn't easy to decide if the "stuff" was more detail or noise (or both). The Onkyo sounded cleaner. With more listening, it appears that analog or non-audiophile recordings can sound better on the Onkyo... perhaps the Onkyo is masking some of the recording defects. The Kenwood appears to sound better with audiophile-quality recordings. Or perhaps I'm imagining things

Nonetheless, both amps sound pretty close - it wasn't night-and-day the way the MMG stomped on the Onkyo speakers it replaced.

litezen · « **Reply #12 on:** 18 Aug 2005, 05:36 am »

It's been a few weeks since I've had the MMG + Kenwood VRS-N8100, so I'd just thought I'll post an update. Initially, I had a bit of regret selling off the Onkyo, as the Kenwood didn't seem to sound that great.

However, after a few weeks, my opinion has changed! I really love this combo. After more careful placement of the speakers, and listening to better source material, and given a chance to "burn-in" (if that made a difference) and/or getting used to the sound - I love it and couldn't be happier! Solo instruments and human voices sound uncannily real with good recordings. Sound effects from movies - like the sound of sparks flying when welding (which I think is tough to get right) - jaw-dropping

beatdownvictim · « **Reply #13 on:** 21 Aug 2005, 06:19 am »

you've got me thinking about this now. but should i ditch my tubed preamp/teac al700p and get the kenwood/panasonic/jvc?!?

I've got the maggies too, but i haven't really turned it up to ear splitting levels yet, nor do i think i ever will.

cognitive dissonance owns me.

Good to hear the combination works well for you!

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #14 on:** 21 Aug 2005, 03:44 pm »

beatdownvictim,

Put up the DIY 'My' (now 'Your') stands and the sandbag on top of the MMG's first before changing out amplification. The MMG's BEG to be braced better and raised...this will probably be a better upgrade then change of amplification at this time for you.

The real deal 'Mye' stands for the MMG's (US$386 delivered here) really astonishly improved the little Maggies. fyi - Grant van Dermye is in B.C....so yours may be a lot less without freight (he packs them oversized in wood crates for safety, otherwise).

But, for 1/10 the money, the DIY 'My' stands will give you 1/2 the improvement...enough to know how good the MMG's could be and what is lacking in making them great.

I'm continually stunned by this speaker now with the Mye stands in place.

beatdownvictim · « **Reply #15 on:** 22 Aug 2005, 01:42 am »

John, you geek, i just picked up the stands yesterday, and i was suprised it fit in a little box! hhahah shiet, i could drive out to grant if i wanted to, but i think the "your/my/whatever" stands should be fine. I'm just finishing up a set of magnet wires for a friend, and then i'm going to get the stands up. Oh and was the package 1 box?

Anyway, when i have the maggies out, would caulking them be a good alternative to plasticlay?

What i'm really concerned about the maggies are........... i've never heard them on high end amplification (nor low end stuff), so i have no basis for comparison. But for me, the stock teac is good enough. I may want to pick up a modded power supply. We'll see how it all goes.

I just wish i had a chance to drive the maggies with my NAD 304 before i sold it. argh!

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #16 on:** 22 Aug 2005, 02:00 am »

Yep, Carson, just one box...it's all L brackets (8 of 'em) and 4' bungee cords to tie them down a bit.

Don't know if caulking works like plast-i-clay....I've used rope caulk with high degree of success with other speakers. Plast-i-Clay is easier to use tho and doesn't harden up.

My MMG's have never had anything higher end than a JVF F10 on them...and sound wonderful.

Don't forget the sandbags on top of each panel...it helps pad down the 48" tall panels, too. If you have any brass toes (or, I used little sorbothane like squishy puds from LAT International), that'll help further still.

There is a whole lotta' flexing and moving when those 48' tall panels are cranking, worse and worse at louder levels, bracing and stiffening them pay rich dividends for peanuts.

While the stock MMG's reproduce the scale and size of orchestral and bigger 'recording' venues, the simple an cheap (and reversible) bracing and lifting tweaks raise the level of resolution up a a few notches to superb status.