Mithat's monthly blog has just posted.

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Mary

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AllanS

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Re: Mithat's monthly blog has just posted.
« Reply #1 on: 30 Dec 2024, 03:51 pm »
Excellent as usual.  Thank you.

AllanS

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Re: Mithat's monthly blog has just posted.
« Reply #2 on: 30 Dec 2024, 04:07 pm »
Can we talk about the DVA preamp?  Unless I’ve missed something, there hasn’t been much if any discussion about the preamp part of the DVA digital preamp.

Is the module Mithat covered in this blog post the meat of the preamp?  I know pots are old school, but I have a hard time relating to a preamp that doesn’t have a knob to turn.

https://mithat.avahifi.com/blog/2024/11/audio-modules-tenth-anniversary

AVASupport

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Re: Mithat's monthly blog has just posted.
« Reply #3 on: 30 Dec 2024, 10:06 pm »
Can we talk about the DVA preamp?  Unless I’ve missed something, there hasn’t been much if any discussion about the preamp part of the DVA digital preamp.

There continues to be some confusion about what exactly the DVA Digital Preamplifier is. Yes, we are to blame because of what we chose to call it. So, here's the skinny.

The DVA Digital Preamplifier is a DAC. That's all. There's no independent preamplifier in it. The thing that makes it preamplifier-like is that it has a variable output level, as do many DACs these days, so it can drive a power amplifier directly -- or not, depending on user preference. The discrete modules referred to in the post (and discussed in an earlier post) are used in the reconstruction/buffering filters, where most DACs use IC opamps. This is the only stage to follow the DAC IC. So, it's a very direct and very pure signal chain.

We chose to call it a "digital preamplifier" to underscore the fact that you don't need an analog preamplifier to use it. This wasn't a new idea when the DVA Digital Preamplifier was released, but it was new to a lot of our existing clients. So, we thought the name would be helpful in underscoring its capabilities for that demographic. Hindsight now says we solved one problem by creating another. We live, we learn.

Now, there's nothing wrong with using the DVA Digital Preamplifier with an analog preamplifier if the coloration your analog preamp creates is something you want to maintain. But for folks who want the least coloration in their systems, going from the DVA Digital Preamplifier straight into a power amp is the preferred way to go.

The other use case where using the DVA Digital Preamplifier with an analog preamplifier makes sense is if you have a split analog/digital system and neither is dominant. For folks who run "mostly" digital, we created the A2D analog-to-digital converter. It lets you connect a couple analog sources to the DVA Digital Preamplifier by converting the signals to digital. Before you cringe, this isn't your 1990s analog-to-digital conversion. It's quite astonishing how good modern ADC ICs have gotten. An A2D combined with the DVA Digital Preamplifier gives pure analog preamplification a real run for its money -- they are both that good!

So, to summarize, the DVA Digital Preamplifier is nothing but a high-performance DAC with variable output level. You can use it as a "classic" DAC by turning it up and plugging it into an analog preamp. Or you can drive a power amp directly from it.

I hope this clarifies things!
« Last Edit: 1 Jan 2025, 05:42 pm by AVASupport »

AllanS

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Re: Mithat's monthly blog has just posted.
« Reply #4 on: 30 Dec 2024, 11:28 pm »
Crystal clear.  Thank you so much for the explanation! 

TomBo

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Re: Mithat's monthly blog has just posted.
« Reply #5 on: 31 Dec 2024, 05:41 pm »
Agreed,
Very helpful explanation

dB Cooper

Re: Mithat's monthly blog has just posted.
« Reply #6 on: 2 Jan 2025, 03:05 pm »
Audio Basics 2.0!!!

RonN5

Re: Mithat's monthly blog has just posted.
« Reply #7 on: 2 Jan 2025, 03:44 pm »
Clear but still a question......is the volume control a function of changing the bit rate or is there actually a "preamp" type volume control.  And then I guess another question...what is the output voltage capability for rca and xlr?

Mary

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Re: Mithat's monthly blog has just posted.
« Reply #8 on: 2 Jan 2025, 07:04 pm »
Clear but still a question......is the volume control a function of changing the bit rate or is there actually a "preamp" type volume control.  And then I guess another question...what is the output voltage capability for rca and xlr?

Hi Ron,

The volume control function is not a bit rate changing function. The DAC automatically detects the bit rate from the source material. Thus, the volume control is just a volume control.

Output information from our website:

Outputs:

One set of stereo differential (i.e., "balanced) XLR and one set of stereo RCA outputs.

    XLR: Full-scale level of 11.2 volts zero-to-peak at maximum volume and can drive balanced loads of 4kΩ or higher or differential loads of 2kΩ or higher per hot/cold output.
    RCA: Full-scale level of 5.6 volts zero-to-peak at maximum volume and can drive loads of 2kΩ or higher.

More information can be found here: https://avahifi.com/collections/digital-audio/products/dva-digital-preamplifier


mr_bill

Re: Mithat's monthly blog has just posted.
« Reply #9 on: 2 Jan 2025, 08:22 pm »
Question - if it's a software controlled volume control with the DA chip, doesn't that then mean it is losing or stripping bits to accomplish level gain reduction, like all the other software based controls do?.........or it it hardware based preamp control?

AVASupport

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Re: Mithat's monthly blog has just posted.
« Reply #10 on: 3 Jan 2025, 04:25 am »
Question - if it's a software controlled volume control with the DA chip, doesn't that then mean it is losing or stripping bits to accomplish level gain reduction, like all the other software based controls do?.........or it it hardware based preamp control?

Here are Mithat's comments clarifying the volume control implemented in the DVA Digital Preamplifier.

Let's start with the fact that the DigiPre uses a DAC IC with 32 very linear bits. This translates to over four billion steps and a "digital" dynamic range approaching 200dB. This should be enough to help convince you that with 32-bit converters you can burn off a lot of bits before any potential digital truncation artifacts have even a chance of being audible.

Next, let's talk about the attenuation (i.e., volume control) in the DigiPre. As is the case with the vast majority of DACs with level controls, it's done in the digital domain. In most systems, we find that about 30dB of attenuation is needed. This means that in most systems, about five bits of the input signal will be truncated during typical use, leaving us with in effect a 27-bit converter. Considering that the vast majority of music releases aren't offered beyond 24 bits, you should now be feeling OK with things being done this way.

But if you're still feeling uncomfortable about "throwing bits away", possibly because you have some recordings in a 32-bit format, consider that both practice and theory have incontrovertibly shown that a properly dithered digital conversion system acts exactly like an analog one in terms of resolution. Not "kind of" or "mostly", but exactly. It has exactly the same "infinite" resolving capacity as an analog system that has the equivalent wideband noise. This seems counter-intuitive at first, but it's really and truly how digital systems work. The easiest way to add this "analogizing" dither is to mix 2 LSB of noise into the signal before conversion or truncation.1

So, assuming proper dithering, the only thing you're going to lose in truncating from N to N-M bits is signal to noise ratio. All the signal will still be there; it'll just be bathed in 2 LSB more noise.

The next question then is how much noise do you need to make sure there's enough noise to properly dither at 27 bits? That would be around 150dB below full scale. Relative to a 125dB signal, which is loud enough to cause pain and permanent damage in minutes, noise that's down 150dB from this would be 25dB below the threshold of hearing. To get the noise to be at the threshold of hearing, the signal would have to be loud enough to rupture your eardrum. Most people don't listen this loudly, and if they do, it's extremely unlikely they can hear 25dB above, let alone below, the threshold of hearing.

More importantly, I challenge anyone to demonstrate a recording with an SNR that remotely approaches 150dB (excluding computer-generated test files). To the best of my knowledge, they just don't exist. The physics of air and electrons makes this effectively impossible. So, any 32-bit recording you care to listen to will already have more than enough noise in it so that it will fully dither when truncated to 27 or even fewer bits -- without even trying.

The final thing you need to consider is that the alternative to "losing" bits via the truncation described above is to send the converted analog signal through another active stage with some kind of level control either in between or as an integral part of the active stage. I'm still waiting for one of those that's completely transparent. So, whichever route you take, you're losing something. With the digital route, what you potentially lose is something that is so incredibly far below the threshold of audibility that I don't lose even one bit of sleep over it.

1There's still a lot of misunderstanding about dither and what it does. Vanderkooy and Lipshitz have published a number of papers in the JAES covering this if you want to take a deeper dive.

AVASupport

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Re: Mithat's monthly blog has just posted.
« Reply #11 on: 3 Jan 2025, 04:36 am »
Clear but still a question......is the volume control a function of changing the bit rate or is there actually a "preamp" type volume control.

To clarify Mary's response, bit rate is set by the incoming stream and isn't affected by changing the volume. Effective bit depth is impacted by changing the volume, per the post above.

RonN5

Re: Mithat's monthly blog has just posted.
« Reply #12 on: 5 Jan 2025, 01:01 pm »
I appreciate Mithat's explanation which lines up perfectly with what I've read from others and experienced with my Oppo 205 which is also 32 bit.   

When using it's digital volume control to control the output signal into a preamp where I could adjust Oppo bit rate down while using the preamp to maintain listening volume...I had to get the Oppo below -40 db before I perceived a difference.  When using the Oppo without a preamp, I would never get below a -55 db listening level as it would just be too low of a volume.

I am certain given the AKM chipset used for the DVA preamp that it sounds as great as the reviews have indicated and adding an analog volume control would likely "reduce" the sound quality.

jandrews

Re: Mithat's monthly blog has just posted.
« Reply #13 on: 5 Jan 2025, 01:49 pm »
What a fabulous response from Mithat.  Thank you.  For those of you without a degree in EE or experience with digital signal processing, it can be a bit weedy.  I do have an EE degree (that I don't use at all professionally) and I had to read through twice....but Mithats explanation cuts through the noise of some peoples strong beliefs about sound quality you read on the internet.  Engineering is often making the best decisions given a set of compromises.  Often those compromises are negligible given the use-case of whatever is being engineered.  We are lucky to get such detailed explanations from him as well as from Dan at AVA.   I do plan to pick up a DVA digital preamp at some point.
Curious if the current builds have (or will have) 12v trigger in's and out's.  My new NP1 has them and it seems they would pair nicely and it would be great to be able to power them on together.
best
Jason


mr_bill

Re: Mithat's monthly blog has just posted.
« Reply #14 on: 5 Jan 2025, 11:06 pm »
Mithat 👍👍👍

Dart87

Re: Mithat's monthly blog has just posted.
« Reply #15 on: 28 Jan 2025, 03:13 am »
Love the Blog Mithat!

The technical details are often above my head which give me an opportunity to do some research.

Do you take requests?

I would love to read a blog on damping factor and the effects of such when introducing a differential amplifier and speakers presenting different loads.

Thanks!

AVASupport

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Re: Mithat's monthly blog has just posted.
« Reply #16 on: 28 Jan 2025, 10:01 pm »
Do you take requests?

I would love to read a blog on damping factor and the effects of such when introducing a differential amplifier and speakers presenting different loads.

We appreciate the suggestion! We can't make promises about topics making it to Mithat's blog, but even if they don't, we like knowing the questions our readers have.