Loudness Wars

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James Tanner

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Loudness Wars
« on: 30 Aug 2021, 10:03 pm »
Here are two waveforms, one for Bad Habits by Ed Sheeran (2020) and the other for Ain't No Sunshine (1971) by Bill Withers.

You can see that Bad Habits has a dynamic range of 4dB whereas Ain’t No Sunshine is 13dB – perfect would be 20dB. Bad Habits also shows a lot of digital clipping, also known as brickwalling (the vertical axis is amplitude and anything supposed to go above the 0 dB point would be clipping).

Good example of the loudness war.

1st pic is Bad habits.






Spyman

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Re: Loudness Wars
« Reply #1 on: 30 Aug 2021, 10:23 pm »
Thanks for posting this, James. A visual indication of what we’ve been hearing for years.

GrooveControl

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Re: Loudness Wars
« Reply #2 on: 30 Aug 2021, 11:30 pm »
Rush got this so wrong on Vapour Trails that they remixed and re-issued the record again ten years later.  Sucks for us, but most music is mixed for radio play, not hifi.

James Tanner

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Re: Loudness Wars
« Reply #3 on: 31 Aug 2021, 12:28 am »
I have a few Blues albums that are very dynamic - check out Hans Theessink

james

OTM

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Re: Loudness Wars
« Reply #4 on: 31 Aug 2021, 02:08 am »
👍🏻👍🏻

& Doug MacLeod

GSDaudio

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Re: Loudness Wars
« Reply #5 on: 31 Aug 2021, 11:24 am »
I have a pristine Boston debut vinyl album (1976) with dr of 12.    Buy the 2013 cd and you get a dr of 8.   Good for the car I suppose.

Source: dr.loudness-war.info  database

James Tanner

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Re: Loudness Wars
« Reply #6 on: 31 Aug 2021, 12:30 pm »
Check out this recording



Matt123

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Re: Loudness Wars
« Reply #7 on: 31 Aug 2021, 02:11 pm »
AMEN. The Wikipedia article "Loudness War" is very worthwhile.
Compression has legit uses, but often it's employed in ways that are analogous  to using a chainsaw for stirring a milkshake.

sleme

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Re: Loudness Wars
« Reply #8 on: 31 Aug 2021, 02:45 pm »
Check out this recording




Really good, especially More Than I Can Say... miles better than Leo Sayer's version.  :lol:

James Tanner

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Re: Loudness Wars
« Reply #9 on: 1 Sep 2021, 12:30 pm »
James,
 
After reading some of the comments on Facebook about the two images I sent yesterday it occurred to me that a more useful comparison would be different masterings of the same music. As well, one user corrected my equating of digital clipping and brickwalling as though they're the same. They're different, but digital clipping is what we're concerned with - the lopping off of anything over 0 dB amplitude. Other than an artist's intentional preference for this sound, it's just part of bad or careless mastering.
 
Attached is an image that shows two waveforms for the song "Travelin' Man" from different masterings of Bob Seger's 1976 "Live Bullet" album.
 
The top file in the image is from the 2011 CD remastering of this album. It has a lot of digital clipping (every track except two) and a MAAT dynamic range score of 5. The whole album is full of digital clipping and the whole album DR score is 6.
 
The bottom file in the image is from an earlier CD release (perhaps the first CD release) of the album. It does not have any digital clipping and the MAAT dynamic range score is 13. The whole album has only two instances of digital clipping and MAAT dynamic range score for the whole album is 13.




 

DannyBadorine

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Re: Loudness Wars
« Reply #10 on: 2 Sep 2021, 03:48 am »
James,
 
After reading some of the comments on Facebook about the two images I sent yesterday it occurred to me that a more useful comparison would be different masterings of the same music. As well, one user corrected my equating of digital clipping and brickwalling as though they're the same. They're different, but digital clipping is what we're concerned with - the lopping off of anything over 0 dB amplitude. Other than an artist's intentional preference for this sound, it's just part of bad or careless mastering.
 
Attached is an image that shows two waveforms for the song "Travelin' Man" from different masterings of Bob Seger's 1976 "Live Bullet" album.
 
The top file in the image is from the 2011 CD remastering of this album. It has a lot of digital clipping (every track except two) and a MAAT dynamic range score of 5. The whole album is full of digital clipping and the whole album DR score is 6.
 
The bottom file in the image is from an earlier CD release (perhaps the first CD release) of the album. It does not have any digital clipping and the MAAT dynamic range score is 13. The whole album has only two instances of digital clipping and MAAT dynamic range score for the whole album is 13.




So, I don't think there's any digital clipping going on with this.  If you zoom into the waveform you will likely still see that it is rounded at the top.  Yes, it has reached the top of the digital domain but it is unlikely that it's clipping. It just looks like that because you're zoomed too far out. Mastering engineers are quite good, especially recently, at getting things to be loud without clipping and it's extremely rare to have any digital clipping happen unless it's a low budget situation.  They often use analog clipping or they clip the input transformer on the A to D converter, but it won't be clipping at the end of the digital domain.  The mastering Limiter will stop it from going past nominal and therefore it's not clipping and there is not any digital distortion.  Try zooming in and looking at the waveform.
   That being said, there is a lot less dynamic range as you pointed out.  Music is mixed to be more in your face but there are ways to give it dynamic perception even though it is more compressed.  I used to loathe the "loudness wars" but I think the mastering engineers have gotten really good at it. They have found ways to make things get loud with less compression.  I really enjoy the sound of many albums that have been put out in the last few years that way.  Pretty much everything will be hitting the nominal 0 point (or -.01) these days, but a lot of it still sounds amazing.
    Also of note, mastering for vinyl is a lot different than for CD's or anything digital.  Too much low end on vinyl can make the record skip. 

James Tanner

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Re: Loudness Wars
« Reply #11 on: 2 Sep 2021, 06:18 am »
Thanks Danny

james

Grant Hill

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Re: Loudness Wars
« Reply #12 on: 3 Sep 2021, 08:28 pm »
Very interesting discussion - thank you

WildPhydeaux

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Re: Loudness Wars
« Reply #13 on: 6 Sep 2021, 02:14 am »
While the topic and example was interesting, I got a lot more lasting value out of the Hans Theessink recommendation. I hadn't heard of him, but am really enjoying some of his material now. Wrong thread, I suppose, but keep them coming...

Cheers,
Robert

James Tanner

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Re: Loudness Wars
« Reply #14 on: 6 Sep 2021, 03:52 pm »
Hi Robert

Ok check out this recording from Linn - I downloaded it from Qobuz.

Notice how low the level is compared to other CD's - so turn up the volume and listen to the dynamics.

james



WildPhydeaux

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Re: Loudness Wars
« Reply #15 on: 6 Sep 2021, 06:26 pm »
Thanks for the cite James! I'll look into that later today. Wait, Qubos? I didn't think we could access that from Canada, or is it just streaming we can't subscribe to and we can still purchase/download?

Cheers,
Robert

James Tanner

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Re: Loudness Wars
« Reply #16 on: 6 Sep 2021, 06:40 pm »
Thanks for the cite James! I'll look into that later today. Wait, Qubos? I didn't think we could access that from Canada, or is it just streaming we can't subscribe to and we can still purchase/download?

Cheers,
Robert

I have someone in the US download it for me.

james