[VinceT]

I have been doing a lot of research the last several years getting into audio, I have a lot to learn regarding the subject. In my research, like many others I have found GR Research.

I have become somewhat of a imaging junkie when to comes to audio. You often hear terms regarding imaging as speakers disappearing in the room, or 3D holographic imaging etc. T
to describe this phenomenon. I have too I'm my limited experience with more Midfi stuff, have experienced this with my systems.

Typically it seems the smaller monitor or slim floor standing speakers are best for imaging and doing the "disappearing act".

I know I am making a lot of generalizations by saying that, amplification, room acoustics speaker design, and many other factors also play a large role in sound reproduction and creating this effect.

No doubt listening to Tech talks and reading this forum the GR products are well engineered. Which speakers in the GR line up have the best imaging qualities? Also do the larger say NX series speakers image as well as some of the smaller speakers such as the monitors, wedgies, LGK etc.? Please forgive me if I come off as a noob with this question..because I am definitely  in the early stages of my audio journey. 

[Captainhemo]

Welcome to the GR  Circle   

Unfortunately,  the  Wedgie's  are not currently available due to  lack of drivers.  The same is true for the Serenity Super Series speakers due to the lack of Neo10's at present.

The entire NX series  has an 8.5"  wide baffle before    the  .5"  roundover  on either   side.   It leave just enough room for the flange   of the  M165/M165NQ drivers.   All the  speakers in this line image   extremely well and when you  get  up  to the NX-Treme's,   they   just an overall   sense of  big , open space  .     They all provide a deep, layered sound stage but need to be a minimum of 3' off the front wall.  If you  can get them out further, all the better.

There are good reports coming   in   with regards to the NX-Studio monitor as well.   It  has the same width baffle, uses the same  GRNeo3 tweeter in  a modified open baffle configuration with a single M165NQ woofer in a sealed enclosure below so getting them out from the wall in  not necessary.

Interestingly enough,   when I  went from the  NX-Otica to the Super 7,  I was worried about  giving up some imaging due to the wider  baffle but that has not been  the case... they are very  equal   in the imaging  department..

We have built out numerous pairs of the X LS Encore mini moonitors with  many different levels of crossover upgrades.  I'm  always impressed withthem.....  they do everything  very well and when you  look at the price of the kits....  you  cannot beat them.   Mike Lundy   had a pair at Lone Star Audio fest  where  many people  compared them  to  much, much higher priced pair of monitors  and I believe many, if not all,  felt the modded X LS Encores were superior.
jay

[Early B.]

Part of what defines any good speaker is imaging. However, it's an elusive term. According to Stereophile, the definition is:

The production of stable, specific phantom images of correct localization and width. See "soundstaging"

This is their definition of soundstaging: 

The accuracy with which a reproducing system conveys audible information about the size, shape, and acoustical characteristics of the original recording space and the placement of the performers within it.   

Of course, we all have our own understanding, perceptions and definitions of these terms.

[orientalexpress]

I build a pair of the X LS Encore mini monitor with stock crossover .I sit in between the speakers up close ,the vocal is right in front of me 

[Rocket_Ronny]

I have been able to get great imaging out of most speakers. Main issue is pulling them out into the room as far as possible, I shoot for 8’ minimum, and proper positioning. All of Danny’s speakers will image well.

Rocket Ronny.

[VinceT]

Welcome to the GR  Circle   

Unfortunately,  the  Wedgie's  are not currently available due to  lack of drivers.  The same is true for the Serenity Super Series speakers due to the lack of Neo10's at present.

The entire NX series  has an 8.5"  wide baffle before    the  .5"  roundover  on either   side.   It leave just enough room for the flange   of the  M165/M165NQ drivers.   All the  speakers in this line image   extremely well and when you  get  up  to the NX-Treme's,   they   just an overall   sense of  big , open space  .     They all provide a deep, layered sound stage but need to be a minimum of 3' off the front wall.  If you  can get them out further, all the better.

There are good reports coming   in   with regards to the NX-Studio monitor as well.   It  has the same width baffle, uses the same  GRNeo3 tweeter in  a modified open baffle configuration with a single M165NQ woofer in a sealed enclosure below so getting them out from the wall in  not necessary.

Interestingly enough,   when I  went from the  NX-Otica to the Super 7,  I was worried about  giving up some imaging due to the wider  baffle but that has not been  the case... they are very  equal   in the imaging  department..

We have built out numerous pairs of the X LS Encore mini moonitors with  many different levels of crossover upgrades.  I'm  always impressed withthem.....  they do everything  very well and when you  look at the price of the kits....  you  cannot beat them.   Mike Lundy   had a pair at Lone Star Audio fest  where  many people  compared them  to  much, much higher priced pair of monitors  and I believe many, if not all,  felt the modded X LS Encores were superior.
jay

Jay

You bring up a great point describing the NX-Tremes
and Studio Monitors.  Soundstage (NX-Tremes) versus speakers imaging to the point of disappearing  in the room (Monitors). I guess that where I am having issues because I have never heard a large vertical array type speaker like the NX-Treme. I have heard systems where the speakers melt and disappear into the room and the imaging is almost 3D and it's done with fast monitor type speakers and nattownbaffled floor standers. I have also heard it wtih some speakers that have the mids upfiring almost having some omni characteristics as well. Several folks said the Studio Monitors do that can do the disappearing act. That is something I am familiar with and can wrap my head around and quite honestly something I really shoot for with my systems. I am familiar with center imaging. I feel speakers that image so well they disappear is something much different than a system that has a strong center stereo image. There have been a few times where I could sense instrument placement in the mix in the soundstage and the room is alive to the point where the sound does not appear to be coming from the speakers what so ever. The sound stage is wide and has depth. The term holographic is often used and I feel is the only way to describe it. So to narrow this down further in regards to this discussion is do the NX-Oticas and NX-Treme do the disappearing act? Or is a deep layer sound stage a whole other animal that can offer something similar or even better?

Much like Early B said ...
"Of course, we all have our own understanding, perceptions and definitions of these terms"

So I understand this is totally subjective and I hope I conveyed my experiences accurately to what I perceive as imaging. Many thanks to all that chimed in.

[Captainhemo]

The NX series  will  disappear leaving only a  deep layered soundstage.  One issue  I find with   speakers when they get  big is  visualization... people tend to stare at them and  they then   feel they can "hear the speakers.....       a real test is to   have them close their  eyes or  use a blindfold....    then  you know as you are now focusing on the  music rather  than the visual image of the speaker(s)

Anytime I go back to any box  speaker  now,    I feel I can  hear the speaker, to me they do not disappaear the way a  well designed  OB speaker does

When I described the NX-Treme's as having  a massive ppresence,  I did not mean  the speakers as individual images / or pieces,  I meant the  the presentation as a whole.  It's strange as they are very  similar to the NX-Otica's but have the extra  4  -200hz woofers up top but ,  those  extra woofers  add a lot to the presentation   just  like subs do    ...  obviouisly  not  as deep but   the same idea.


jay

[jn316]

This video with Danny and Ron of New Record Day may help too if you haven't already seen it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xxFKVC2Xro
Gary

[sunnydaze]

I have been able to get great imaging out of most speakers. Main issue is pulling them out into the room as far as possible, I shoot for 8’ minimum, and proper positioning. All of Danny’s speakers will image well.

Rocket Ronny.

Agree 100%.   

Just about any speaker will image / stage well if pulled away from room boundaries.   Take the room out of play as much as possible, listen mid or nearfield,  and many of the room's contributing ills / contaminants to good SQ will disappear.

[Tyson]

Room kind of dictates how good an imaging you can get out of different types of speakers.

For box speakers with wide dispersion, you really need a symmetrical room and a good amount of room treatments to get them to image well.

For box speakers with narrow (controlled) directivity, you still need a symmetrical room but I find less need for room treatments due to their directional nature in the mids/highs.

For well designed OB speakers, you don't need a symmetrical room OR much in the way of room treatment.  They are the least sensitive to poor room acoustics.  You really do need at least 3 feet from the rear wall, but you've got more more latitude re: side walls.  ie, they can be placed close to side walls and still image extremely well. 

I also find that well designed OB speakers just image better than box speakers.  Box speakers can have very good side to side imaging, and excellent center imaging.  But they really fall down in depth of imaging vs an OB. 

Re: the size of the speaker.  At least in Danny's designs, the size of the OB speaker does not have a deleterious effect on imaging.  The large speakers image just as well as the small speakers, IME.  And in some respects are even better.  I think it's because all of them have very narrow baffles, all of them are barely wider than the drivers themselves.  So the larger speaker disappear like the small ones do, plus have the added benefit of being able to present larger instruments more realistically.  Don't get me wrong, I love the Super Mini, but it's just not going to convey half a dozen double-basses in the same way that the NX-Treme can.  That sense of realism on larger instruments goes a long way to creating a more realized sounding image/soundstage. 

[Rocket_Ronny]

I would say if you want the best image out of GRs current line up, I would get the NX Extremes.

Rocket Ronny

[gBoogie]

Pardon the intrusion from the noob here. If understanding the lingo from memory serves me correct, Imaging is the ability of picking the positions of everyone on stage per say correct? While soundstage is the vastness by which it sounds overall? So imaging is micro-dynamics??? Guess smaller spaces would do well with smaller speakers and vice versa. Which leads me to my conclusion of the NX line up being pretty good at imaging as yes the monitors would disappear but because of the OB design on top would paint a pretty picture as it is not boxed in.
The NX Studio Monitors in my relatively medium space is my ideal speaker of choice. But at the asking price I was really looking at the XLS Encores. But perhaps I should just continue saving up for the NX StdMons as they might be the better overall speaker.
I should ask this question for anyone who's in the know- What are the differences between the NX Studio Monitors and XLS Encores when talking about sound? Not technical aspects and specs. The box speaker versus the OB design. What I am looking for is which is more fun? Which will get me moving or toe tapping? I am not looking for analytical by any means. I want fun speakers! Yes imaging and sound stage is nice overall as a nice spacious sound with detail is a must but not when its clinical. I also listen to compressed music from streaming services as a norm so I don't want revealing speakers that produce all the ugliness from the lack of HQ sound. So which is more forgiving as well?
I kinda drooled at the planar design of the NX Studio Moniors which made me sway a bit to them as well.

[goggle1824]

I’m FAR from any sort of expert but from what I’ve read and others’ have described, I believe all of Danny’s speakers are designed for fun, i.e. “get me moving or toe-tapping”, at least all of his own stuff is (GR Research products).

I do hope if I’m off the mark on this perception, others add their thoughts.

Following the discussion with much interest!

[Rocket_Ronny]

Imaging to me, is everything to do with the sound stage presentation, from the sound field size to individual placement of instruments.

Rocket Ronny

[Endo2112]

I'm a big fan of imaging  as well as special depth and have come to believe that it all starts with blacker blacks. Another point that I think is pertinent, as my system upgrades and components and have increased in quality and clarity, my NX Extremes have continued to sound even better meaning that they have never been the limiting factor in the overall sound quality and I've yet to hit there limit, and this attribute is the mark of a great speaker.

My 2 cents,

Don

[Sonicjoy]

gBoogie

I also listen to compressed music from streaming services as a norm so I don't want revealing speakers that produce all the ugliness from the lack of HQ sound. So which is more forgiving as well?

You can't really have it both ways. If you have a system that glosses over the crappy recordings and low res sources then you will miss out on the magic of the really great recordings and sources. I think you just have to learn to put up with the crappy recordings or just play them for back round music, or stick with mid-fi equipment. I found that I just shifted to mainly listening to better quality recordings.

The NX- line are very high end speakers and deserve the best quality electronics. They will never likely be the limiting factor in your system. I think many folks see the reasonable prices of the kits and think that they may be good for the price not realizing that they are true world class high end speakers that if they were produced and sold like most speakers they would sell for many times the kit price. I just build the NX-Studio's and they are the best small speakers that I have ever heard price be dammed. Imaging, sound stage, tone, detail, shear resolution they have it all. 

[Tyson]

The thing that makes mediocre recordings sound bad is speakers with a jagged frequency response and poor spectral decay.  Luckily, none of Danny's speakers have jagged FR or poor CSD. 

Think of it like this - with these speakers, your music streams are going to sound better than they will through any other speakers (especially in this price class).  If/when you upgrade equipment and sources down the line, the speakers will sound better and better. 

[VinceT]

. So which is more forgiving as well?
I kinda drooled at the planar design of the NX Studio Moniors which made me sway a bit to them as well.

This comment sticks out to me the most. The planar with the open baffle, if it was me and had a dome tweeter I would always be wondering about that planet tweeter. In fact i am always wondering about the OB planar...lol.

Also you can always upgrade your streaming service and get a DAC that won't be a budget breaker. Really get the most out of your speakers whatever you choose.

[corndog71]

I recommend going for the best speakers you can afford.  Save and stretch for something that's just a little out of your reach.  Any of Danny's speakers are a great choice but keep in mind your listening room limitations.  Generally speaking the bigger the speaker the more room you will need for them to sound their best.  A pair of X-LS and a sealed servo sub make a great combo that would please most people.  But if want more resolution that's still silky smooth then go for the NX Studio.  Just remember you will also need speaker stands to go with them. 

If you can handle towers consider the X-Statiks or step up to NX-Otticas.  There's plenty of other options too.