You want "REAL" bass -- The Genius Cheney

brj · « **Reply #20 on:** 5 Jan 2005, 04:58 am »

Quote from: zybar

I am actually going in the opposite direction and adding a second Crown K2 to the system. This means a K2 for each Larger sub.

I will try the amps as mono amps (about 2500 watts each) and as stereo amps with each channel connected to a single driver.

Do the neighbors complain when you play loud passages and their lights dim?

Let us know how it works out!

Russtafarian · « **Reply #21 on:** 5 Jan 2005, 06:13 pm »

John,

Very interesting setup. It's time I get up to your place to hear it. I've had my stereo dipole subs up and running for a few weeks now and based on the sound you've described, I think I'm hearing similar improvements in my system. The bass articulation and envelopment of the stereo dipoles is a big step up from the single Hsu VTF-2 I had used for years.

As you know I'm a big multi-channel guy and proper bass management for 4.1 (I don't use a center channel) has been a challenge. Santa was kind enough to drop off an Outlaw ICBM recently and this seems to be the missing link to pull it all together.

I do have to be careful not to bottom out the dipoles when playing music/movies with extreme deep bass content. This happens rarely and is easily fixed with a second EQ preset on the Behringer that attenuates output below 25 Hz by about 12 dB.

Here's what I have invested in this so far: Outlaw ICBM - being a good boy for Santa, Behringer 1124 - $120, use of 4 channels of my $800 DIY 6 channel tripath amp, 2 Audire Tempest 15" drivers @ $150 each, and $50 in cabinet materials. Considering the cost of this solution, I couldn't be happier.

Russ

zybar · « **Reply #22 on:** 5 Jan 2005, 06:21 pm »

Quote from: brj

Quote from: zybar
I am actually going in the opposite direction and adding a second Crown K2 to the system. This means a K2 for each Larger sub.

I will try the amps as mono amps (about 2500 watts each) and as stereo amps with each channel connected to a single driver.

Do the neighbors complain when you play loud passages and their lights dim?

Let us know how it works out!

That's why I bought a house and installed dedicated 30 amp lines!!

George

ekovalsky · « **Reply #23 on:** 5 Jan 2005, 07:42 pm »

I've heard a few dipole bass systems and was very impressed with them. I am considering some custom built subwoofers with four 12" drivers on the front and four on the rear running with inverted polarity. One would be placed at the middle of each side wall. Because of the configuration of my room, I will not be able to place subs along the centers of the front or rear walls.

Another possibility is using four 12" drivers per side in sealed or vented enclosures to be placed in the front corners.

EQ and crossover will done via TacT or DEQX.

Xi-Trum · « **Reply #24 on:** 5 Jan 2005, 09:26 pm »

This is a rather interesting discussion since I recently added a sub to my setup. Now, our discussion here assumes that the subs's drivers are front-firing (like the Larger). Does it apply to subs that have downward firing drivers? Just wondering.

doug s. · « **Reply #25 on:** 6 Jan 2005, 09:00 pm »

john, thanks so much for posting yer impressions of this. as ya know, i have been waiting for info about this ever since ya posted ya got a 2nd pair of larger subs. as the owner of a pair of larger subs that i upgraded to megawoofer status, (i bought these long before megawoofers were an option), i now only need to buy two 15" passives to make a second pair of larger subs...

regards,

doug s.

John Casler · « **Reply #26 on:** 6 Jan 2005, 09:00 pm »

Quote from: Russtafarian

John,

Very interesting setup. It's time I get up to your place to hear it. ...

Hey Russ,

Be glad to have you stop in. This is starting to get "freaky" good.

I have another tweak I have been developing (will be doing further research at CES)

Also, I looking seriously at going "TRI"

John Casler · « **Reply #27 on:** 6 Jan 2005, 09:03 pm »

Quote from: Xi-Trum

This is a rather interesting discussion since I recently added a sub to my setup. Now, our discussion here assumes that the subs's drivers are front-firing (like the Larger). Does it apply to subs that have downward firing drivers? Just wondering.

The "push/pull" will work equally well with all makes, and types of subs. It will also work with "dissimilar" brands and types, but to a varying degree.

It seems that the Harman work "did not" take advantage of this.

It seems that if you have two subs firing at each other "in phase" that when the waves "collide" (midroom) you have additional "cancellation", while "out of phase" cause all the air between the subs to act and react the same.

While I need to explore this a bit more, it could, if set up well offer some pretty good reward.

John Casler · « **Reply #28 on:** 6 Jan 2005, 09:06 pm »

Quote from: doug s.

john, thanks so much for posting yer impressions of this. as ya know, i have been waiting for info about this ever since ya posted ya got a 2nd pair of larger subs. as the owner of a pair of larger subs that i upgraded to megawoofer status, (i bought these long before megawoofers were an option), i now only need to buy two 15" passives to make a second pair of larger subs...

regards,

doug s.

Hi Doug,

Ya, dis ting works grate!!!

Please get the other two operational and try this "stereo push/pull" and let me know what ya think.

It is SICK!! it is so good.

John Casler · « **Reply #29 on:** 6 Jan 2005, 09:22 pm »

Just did a quick listen to check a CD I ma burning for CES, and found something out.

I noticed a slight bit if "hang" to the thunder in the low bass (which is now going MUCH lower)

In looking at the front Subs, I realized that they are "angled" in to accomadate the convergence angle of the 626Rs.

So I equally angled the rear subs

!!!!Holy Toledo!!!!

a veil of low bass clairity has now been lifted, (I thought I might have to be doing some "putty work", but right now the low bass is as "clear" as I have ever heard it in this room.

Additional set up possiblity:

Heard about a 1B user who was going to build the sub into the "CENTER" of the ceiling, directly over his listening position

Thought I might try moving the two rear subs to the left and right of the listening postition, and laying them on their backs "FIRING UP" to the ceiling, which should have a similar effect as firing down from the ceiling.

Hope my ceiling (and upstairs neighbors) can take the pressure

If I get a chance to do this, will report the results. Not quite sure what phase to run, but will experiment.

Too many possibilities.

ctviggen · « **Reply #30 on:** 6 Jan 2005, 09:34 pm »

I don't know if you could do this with the sub I own, an SVS. They are down-firing but ported out the top. You might be able to do it if you laid the massive tubes on their sides (woofers firing in opposite directions) but with some difference between the subs. However, you'd need a big room. Maybe you could put one on a stand and fire it upward.

pugs · « **Reply #31 on:** 8 Jan 2005, 05:53 pm »

Would this method work for a biwired set of speakers? I have NHT 2.5i mains which are crossed over at 100 Hz at the woofer. I don't have them biwired now, but if I did, would I get the same bass affect running the mid/treb in phase and the woofers out of phase?

John Ashman · « **Reply #32 on:** 20 Feb 2005, 08:16 pm »

pugs, don't do that, it would destroy the bass. I could explain why, but let's just say that wouldn't be good!

ekovalsky · « **Reply #33 on:** 20 Feb 2005, 09:40 pm »

Quote from: pugs

Would this method work for a biwired set of speakers? I have NHT 2.5i mains which are crossed over at 100 Hz at the woofer. I don't have them biwired now, but if I did, would I get the same bass affect running the mid/treb in phase and the woofers out of phase?

That is almost guaranteed to sound like crap

John Casler · « **Reply #34 on:** 21 Feb 2005, 02:22 am »

Quote from: pugs

Would this method work for a biwired set of speakers? I have NHT 2.5i mains which are crossed over at 100 Hz at the woofer. I don't have them biwired now, but if I did, would I get the same bass affect running the mid/treb in phase and the woofers out of phase?

Hi Pugs,

As stated by both posters above, it would not be the right thing to do.

The push/pull is set up to have the greatest affect on the "air" between a pair of "front and back" Low Frequency Drivers "NOT" side by side.

It has no advantages on the same speaker or pair of speakers if they are L&R and in the same plane.

Now what you could do if you have a "full range" L&R mains is run a pair of small subs at the rear of the room "out of phase" to get the same effect.

That is, if the front mains go low enough, the rear subs could be used "out of phase".

Florian · « **Reply #35 on:** 21 Feb 2005, 02:41 am »

I dont really get 80% of whats being said but i do remember that i had a big bass problem with my old Home Theater. I had 2 subwoofers and i never got any bass at all when i had them run together. It was quite funny, one alone shook everything but as soon as i turned the second one on, it was all gone. Even pressing the "phase" switch in the back didnt help. Than i just switched the cables (1 was active and 1 was passive) and man did it shake the house now. It was awsome !!!