[jhr1986]

Hello all,

I'm returning to stereo/hi-fi after a 10 year hiatus.  I'm in the process of moving into a new house and selecting furniture etc which has me considering my room layout for audio.  I haven't bought any furniture yet and how I setup the room will dictate what type and size seating can be accommodated.  It's worth noting that this will not be a dedicated listening room and will function also as a sitting room for entertaining guests. 

I'll attach a photo of a crudely drawn floorplan for this room and I'd like to hear your opinions on the possible speaker placement locations, all of which seem to require serious compromises.  The room is roughly 12' x 20', speakers will be towers without a sub.

Position 1:  Speakers are ~9' apart, probably with some seating in between.  Most "convenient" location in terms of being out of walk ways and close to outlets for the front end.  Biggest problem is that the listening position would be 5-5.5' in front of the speakers.

Position 2:  Speakers about 7.5' apart and allows for a similar distance to the listening position.  Problems in this position are that the right side speaker is awfully close to the walkway and one of the doors and the amps/sources would have to be placed somewhere to the left of speaker position 1. 

Position 3:  Speakers would only be 5' apart and would have to be jammed up against the back wall, maybe 6" of clearance, both speakers would be very close to door openings but they would be out of the way of most of the room and components could be placed right between them.

Any thoughts on which placement seems the least bad?  There is a 4th option which is to put the stereo system in the basement, the room would be about 11'x13' and speaker placement would be easy.  Unfortunately this means bringing up the HT system upstairs into this above mentioned 12x20' room.  I'd prefer to not entertain guests in my TV room but this might be the easiest option.

[toocool4]

I am not sure if that is a solid wall behind where you call the walkway? If it is a solid wall, I would choose position 2 but with the speakers pulled way into the room. But you should really experiment and choose which location sounds best to you.

[jhr1986]

The back wall (bottom) from left to right in the photo is an interior door to a bathroom, then ~4' of solid wall, then ~7' of railing that surrounds the stairs to the basement.  Unfortunately that area isn't a good place for seating.

[Big Red Machine]

It's very nice to have symmetry in a room set-up. No matter which way you go you'll have some asymmetrical wall reflections. It will be awkward sitting out there near the walkway. I'd choose 2 or 3 and trying to get electronics wired on a fireplace wall complicates your life.

[toocool4]

Well like I said before, you will have to experiment and choose what works best for you.
Good luck.

[richidoo]

Hi jhr, Welcome to Audiocircle!

I would go with position #1, I regard width more important than room length. 5 feet speaker width probably not gonna cut it for 2 and 3. You'll need to sit closer to get good stereo, and if it's a 3 way floor stander you usually need a little more distance for good time alignment of the drivers, but not always.

Also you want L/R symmetry of the first reflection wall distances, which you only get from 3 and 1 because 2 has a side wall that's close on left side and far on right side, that will mess up your stereo image. Also, the fireplace hole is a little echo chamber best avoided between the speakers. Front wall should be flat smooth wall if possible, like #1.

With position 1 you can move the listening chair further back into the walkway when you get the chance for serious listening if you have a moveable listening chair. Or change the flooring to get rid of the walkway and put your listening chair their permanently.

You might need to treat the rear wall of position 1 if it only goes halfway across the room. Looks like wall only extends halfway across the room then the railing takes over at the stairway. Ideally convert the railing into a wall.

The other advantage of #1 is it has the widest room width which gives the greatest delay of the first reflections from the side walls. The more delayed the first reflections the less you hear/notice their detrimental effects. The ceiling and floor reflections are still the same as 2 and 3 but side walls have effect on stereo image. You can put some diffusion on the ceiling at first reflection point and behind you on the rear wall, if necessary. For best stereo imaging, minimize the reflective objects placed between the speakers, a flat wall is ideal.

Don't be afraid to put the speakers closer to the wall.  Many speakers are actually designed to be placed with baffle 2 feet from the front wall in order to get flat frequency response and minimize midbass smear from front wall low frequency reflections, aka SBIR speaker boundary interference response. Too far from the wall and you get bass smear, too close to the wall and you will have too much bass. Experiment to find the distance from the wall which balances these two qualities and you will be well rewarded. Explore the "Master Set" speaker positioning system, as posted here on AC some years ago. It's a bit of a strange ritual, but it serves to set the width to get strongest center imaging, then sets the distance to front wall to get the best balance between too much bass and too much bass smear from SBIR. It tends to end up closer to the wall to get the smoothest bass response (because it minimizes SBIR) If you understand the principle of minimizing SBIR and tuning bass level then you don't need Master Set ritual and can get even better results.

You didn't mark the windows, but it's nice to have thick heavy curtains that will tame those glass reflections and outside noise, if possible. Have fun!
Rich

[Saturn94]

I have a similar setup and tried positions similar to #1 and #3.  The soundstage at #3 seemed so small compared to #1.

I’d try #1 in your case.

[sunnydaze]

......It will be awkward sitting out there near the walkway......

Not necessarily.  Define the walkway with a couch in front of it facing position 1, with the walkway behind the couch.   Commonly done in open layout living spaces to define and section off LR, DR, walkways, etc.

Then a club chair / recliner can be placed to the left facing (and enjoying!) the fireplace.

6' distance to the speakers is OK so long as the speakers are not too complex with multiple drivers that need distance to integrate at the ear.  Front porting would help further, allowing you to get speakers tighter on the front wall.

My room is very large open layout, combo LR and DR,  at 17' x 36'.   The eye and natural flow of the room tells me to place the speakers on the short wall firing down the length, towards the dining area behind my couch.  But my ear tells me they sound best on the long wall firing across the room.   Even though they are a decent sized floorstander, they sounded too small, dead and "lost" on the short wall.  Like I need a much bigger speaker for the space.   But on the long wall the sound is much bigger and fuller and more dynamic / impactful -- and most importantly, more musical.  Like they were playing in a smaller room.  Not as visually pleasing or ergonomic for living, but soooooo much better for sound.

Position 1 allows for a nearfield setup that takes room boundaries out of play, and if done right with the right speaker, should give a nice immersive and immediate listening experience.  Much easier to get good sound without extensive room treatments, since reflected sound is reduced and more direct sound hits the ear.  Also, you will likely need less speaker to load the room.  Save $$ and space.

Try position 1, good chance you'll like it -- unless speakers need more distance to integrate drivers and gain coherency.

[jhr1986]

6' distance to the speakers is OK so long as the speakers are not too complex with multiple drivers that need distance to integrate at the ear.  Front porting would help further, allowing you to get speakers tighter on the front wall.

This is my main concern with position 1 - I may not be able to sit far enough away - even though I think it is probably the best overall option.  The pair of speakers that I have is a ~16 year old set of Onix Rocket RS750s from the long defunct AV123.  Four woofers and a tweeter, but having not listened to them in ten years, I don't remember anything about their performance up close. 

The speakers are actually sitting in storage in Texas, and have been for 10 years.  After a decade of moving around and not having space for a real stereo, I'm finally in a permanent home...in Utah.  My first hurdle is to ship the speakers, amp, preamp, turntable etc from TX to UT.  I believe I can get this arranged within the next two weeks.

As toocool4 said, I'm just going to have to play around with it.  I hate walking through an empty room everyday and am anxious to get some furniture in there but this discussion has helped me to realize that what I need to do is get the stereo in the room with just one listening chair and play with it till I find the right placement, then add other furniture around that.  And perhaps moving the listening chair back into the walkway area for critical listening is part of the solution as well.

Think I will ditch position #3, y'all have affirmed my fear that it would place the speakers too close to each other for good imaging.

[sunnydaze]

I remember those speakers.  No idea how they'd perform nearfield - ish.  You'd just have to try.   If I were to guess, I'd say not so good.  And I remember them being on the large side -- might be a bit visually imposing in any of your setups -- esp the nearfield one.

And unfortunately, they are rear ported.

If the budget allows it I'd consider replacing them with a sweet slim 2 -way or single driver floorstander.  Many would work nicely 5 or 6 ft away, and not dominate visually.  Omega comes to mind.

I also think a smaller more slimline cabinet will give more flexibility in trying different placement setups, and look much nicer and dominate the room less than the Rockets.  IMO, of course.

If you'd consider that route and provided a budget and associated gear and listening / music preferences, I'd sure you'd get many recs.

[sunnydaze]

I love nearfield listening.  It can work well even in a large space with speakers that are by conventional wisdom way too small for the space if setup the "normal" way, ie approx 10 ft away, or more.  The very nature of nearfield means you can get away with smaller.  Because you are so close to them you don't need to energize an entire room to enjoy them.  Also, put as much air around them as your room allows  and you will deal with fewer reflections and room anomalies.

For example:





That's my large space and setup that I described earlier.  The monitors are spread 6 ft, and I listen 6 ft away.  They sound fine even closer.  Key to nearfield is not too many drivers, uncomplicated design.  Soundstage is huge, speakers don't exist. Very musical.  Very large space so I often use the subs they sit on.  But listening without them, even in that large space,  satisfies.  Depends what you like and how you listen -- certainly wouldn't satisfy headbangers or electronic / synth aficianados.  In a smaller room a slim floorstanding version of that monitor, or similar, would work for me.  If not, add a subwoofer (or two).  Gives good LF flexibility and control, especially if mains are high-passed.

It doesn't need to break the bank, I picked up those monitors (JM Reynaud Twins) for $600 (used) over 10 yrs ago.

[jhr1986]

Thanks for the thoughts on the nearfield setup.  The current stereo I have, bought many years ago on a college student budget mind you, consists of a Sony TA-E9000es preamp, Emotiva LPA-1 amp and the aforementioned rocket speakers.  I'll be giving this whole rig a go for a few weeks/months to get a baseline and to get reacquainted but I'm certainly not opposed to upgrading the system or changing components.  There's probably ~5k in the budget for upgrades but I'm cheap so it's unlikely that I'll spend up to that.

Listening preferences - I won't comment because I haven't listened to good stereo in a long time and even back in the day I didn't have the opportunity to try lots of different front ends or speakers.

Music preferences - Mostly rock & blues from the 50s to today, little bit of alternative, little bit of metal, little bit of classical, little bit of rap, little bit of country/bluegrass.

[JLM]

Why can't folks walk in front of the couch to access the stairs?  Giving up 3ft width in a 12ft wide room for a walkway is ridiculous.  Floating furniture (locating away from walls) as you're suggesting requires a huge room which you don't have.  By the time you add seating in front of a walkway you'd be sitting almost in the middle of the room. 

Option #1 is the only reasonable alternative you've proposed IMO.  Option #2 places the fireplace in the middle of your soundstage.  Option #3 wouldn't allow you to sit in front of the loudspeakers.  What about option #4, placing the loudspeakers in the walkway?

[sunnydaze]

Why can't folks walk in front of the couch to access the stairs?  Giving up 3ft width in a 12ft wide room for a walkway is ridiculous.  Floating furniture (locating away from walls) as you're suggesting requires a huge room which you don't have. 

Don't quite understand your logic.....

I lived in a somewhat similar room in that there was a walkway from the front door to the 2nd floor staircase.  That section of the room effectively becomes unusable for furniture or stereo.  You can see it in the photo under my user name.  Pathway is behind the speakers, front door rear right, staircase rear left.

What you suggest may be doable -- depends if speakers can be centered on the couch -- but so is a pathway behind the couch.

If couch faces position 1, with 3ft behind it for walkway, the seated listener is 9ft from front wall.  Assume speaker is spread 8ft and baffle is 2ft from front wall, a little math (pythagorean theorem) tells us the speakers are 8.1ft from the listener.  Perfect equilateral triangle often works well.

Keep the same spread but move speaker 1ft closer to couch, the listener is now 7.2ft away.

Same spread, move speaker another foot foward, the listener is now 6.4ft away.

Of course ultimately everything comes down to listening, and spreads can be adjusted to ear, but on the surface why is this not doable...or at least worth trying?  Speaker has a nice spread with plenty of air around it to reduce room interactions -- in the last example it is 4ft forward of the wall, and sidewalls are basically non-existent.  This is a very good thing -- greater ratio of pure direct sound.  As long as speaker is not a large box it will neither dominate visually nor feel uncomfortable / imposing to the listener as it gets closer.  And since this situation approaches nearfield, large boxes are neither required nor desireable.

[roscoe65]

Thanks for the thoughts on the nearfield setup.  The current stereo I have, bought many years ago on a college student budget mind you, consists of a Sony TA-E9000es preamp, Emotiva LPA-1 amp and the aforementioned rocket speakers.  I'll be giving this whole rig a go for a few weeks/months to get a baseline and to get reacquainted but I'm certainly not opposed to upgrading the system or changing components.  There's probably ~5k in the budget for upgrades but I'm cheap so it's unlikely that I'll spend up to that.

Listening preferences - I won't comment because I haven't listened to good stereo in a long time and even back in the day I didn't have the opportunity to try lots of different front ends or speakers.

Music preferences - Mostly rock & blues from the 50s to today, little bit of alternative, little bit of metal, little bit of classical, little bit of rap, little bit of country/bluegrass.

I’m not sure of the shipping costs from Texas to Utah but you would not have to spend a large amount of money to vastly improve the equipment you have.  A <$5,000 system would transform the room.  If you don’t mind secondhand, you could purchase a used pair of Harbeth 7es2 or 7es3, a used Primaluna integrated amp, and cables and stands.  It would be very hard to improve on this system in your room without spending a lot more money.

[sunnydaze]

I’m not sure of the shipping costs from Texas to Utah but you would not have to spend a large amount of money to vastly improve the equipment you have.  A <$5,000 system would transform the room.  If you don’t mind secondhand, you could purchase a used pair of Harbeth 7es2 or 7es3, a used Primaluna integrated amp, and cables and stands.  It would be very hard to improve on this system in your room without spending a lot more money.

Agree 100%.  5k spent wisely in the used market can get you a very nice system.  And you can tailor it to better fit your room, than maybe your current speakers?

[sunnydaze]

For example:

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649672502-jm-reynaud-euterpe-supreme/

Are you kidding me!!  $685 for this speaker is a sick deal!!  It retailed for over $3000 just a few years ago.  Great speaker at an amazing price.  Not bad to look at either.  Front ported transmission line means it's fairly easy to place and bass will be great.  If you prize tone, musicality and an immersive experience you could do a lot worse.

If I still lived in NY I'd be seriously tempted to drive up and get it.

[JLM]

Don't quite understand your logic.....

I lived in a somewhat similar room in that there was a walkway from the front door to the 2nd floor staircase.  That section of the room effectively becomes unusable for furniture or stereo.  You can see it in the photo under my user name.  Pathway is behind the speakers, front door rear right, staircase rear left.

What you suggest may be doable -- depends if speakers can be centered on the couch -- but so is a pathway behind the couch.

If couch faces position 1, with 3ft behind it for walkway, the seated listener is 9ft from front wall.  Assume speaker is spread 8ft and baffle is 2ft from front wall, a little math (pythagorean theorem) tells us the speakers are 8.1ft from the listener.  Perfect equilateral triangle often works well.

Keep the same spread but move speaker 1ft closer to couch, the listener is now 7.2ft away.

Same spread, move speaker another foot foward, the listener is now 6.4ft away.

Of course ultimately everything comes down to listening, and spreads can be adjusted to ear, but on the surface why is this not doable...or at least worth trying?  Speaker has a nice spread with plenty of air around it to reduce room interactions -- in the last example it is 4ft forward of the wall, and sidewalls are basically non-existent.  This is a very good thing -- greater ratio of pure direct sound.  As long as speaker is not a large box it will neither dominate visually nor feel uncomfortable / imposing to the listener as it gets closer.  And since this situation approaches nearfield, large boxes are neither required nor desireable.

Room is 12ft wide.  Assume a 3ft walkway along the long wall.  That leaves 9ft of usable width (very narrow for a living space).  Placing a lounge chair or couch in front of the walkway would leave roughly 6ft of remaining room width (less if the chair is a recliner or has an ottoman, or coffee table in the case of a couch - leaving about 3ft).  Then subtract the depth of the loudspeakers from front wall (ideally at least 3ft), and you'd have no room width left. 

Why can't folks walk in front of furniture to get to the stairs?  Now listening against a wall isn't ideal either, but the alternative is unlivable.

I listen mid-field, loudspeakers are 10ft apart and 6.5ft from the listening position in my dedicated room.  Have roughly 10ft clear between the listening position and rear wall.  But every loudspeaker and room is different. 

[sunnydaze]

Streamlined couch with a 6 inch thick back cushion, puts the listener 8.5ft away from the front wall. That is not horrible for listener distance to speaker possibilities as I explained above.  Strictly for sound, that is the distance that matters.

But your points about coffee table / ottoman and total couch depth are good ones from an ergonomic perspective. I didn't consider either, just location of ears.  I don't use a coffee table, just find it gets in the way as I'm constantly popping up and down to change LPs. Once it's factored in, things probably get too tight. Another factor that will rob space in front of the listener is the rack depth, which I assume will be between the speakers.  So yeah.....the more I think about , while it is probably possible to get decent ear to speaker distances and air around the speakers (and therefore good SQ), the overall comfort factor and liveability of this setup (walkway behind couch) is probably not acceptable.

But not really many options in this room.  I would suggest a placement #4:  it's #3 with speakers moved toward fireplace and spread wider such that both doors swing clear.  Then put a couch or listening chair in front of fireplace.  Not ideal as a nice feature of the room is now blocked and effectively rendered unuseable.

But from purely a SQ perspective, leaving ergonomic issues aside, my instinct says that long wall speaker placement will be best.  That is usually my experience.

[sunnydaze]

Another possibility is to put the speakers just in front of, or partially inside, the "walkway".  This allows long wall placement (may be the better option?); expands the space;  fireplace is unblocked and useable; puts good air around the speakers as a starting point; and still allows fairly easy access to both corner doors and staircase.  And it avoids sitting the listener in a high traffic area that chair placement in "walkway" would subject him to.

Put couch or listening chair against opposite wall.   Listening against back wall is not ideal, but this puts ears about 9 to 10 feet from speaker plane as a starting point.  A comfortable distance both visually and ergonomically...especially since there is another 2 or 3 feet behind the speaker plane to the wall.   Then use ears to bring speakers forward and adjust spread and toe-in until best result is achieved.

I listen with my back against the wall, and so long as I don't listen at huge volume (which I prefer not to anyway) I don't notice much detriment because the reflected sound is is kept down at low SPL.  Worst case, acoustic tuning material can be put on the back wall.

Just a thought.