[G E]

I got kicked out out of the current cable argument thread for suggesting we argue about something else   

ACOUSTIC TREATMENT of the listening space

So I am starting separate thread for this topic.

Acoustic treatment has by far has the most impact to quality of the sound of the room. Yet few people undertake it. Why is that?

It should take priority over equipment upgrades and audiophile records.

Years ago I built out a dedicated space. Even found a calculator to size room to minimize nulls etc.

The sound quality was terrible. It was NOT my gear which was great in a 2 story open floor plan space. But in my 13x15x9 space... unlistenable.

I studied up on acoustic treatment and built absorption panels and bass traps and what a transformation!

I’m revisiting my current acoustic treatment and will add diffusion in key areas.

If you haven’t treated your listening space, why?  I don’t want to hear about wife acceptance factor. There are ways to do this tastefully in a shared space.

And, NO,  electronic equalization does not solve the problem of controlling unwanted reflective sound waves!  I've had ongoing "conversations" with an old friend who went down that path.

Let the “discussion”commence.

[Elizabeth]

Thanks G.E. for starting a thread about a good problem most folks have.
I have ignored the room a lot. I know I should get into the room issues, but have only done a few trivial adjustments. 
The speaker location is the biggest issue in a room.
That I have worked on, and put my bought one year ago Magnepan 20.7 in the same location I had worked out with the previous Magnepan 3.6 speakers. (I had added 'wing' to the bass side of those, so the width of the 20.7 and the 3.6 with wing, identical!) The speakers are tweeters in, and angled a lot, measuring 18" from closest to side wall. 42" inner edge, and 53" outer edge to back wall.
Behind the speakers to the side walls are floor to ceiling shelving full of DVDs in 'slimpack' (so half the wasted space of regular cases) and I have those randomly turned down in clumps and pulled out in clumps to 'break up' the reflections. This actually WORKS. btw. To the back wall corner are thick lined drawn drapes.
The bad part is the huge picture window behind the speakers. It is nine feet wide (the wall is 11' 8" total) Sadly I can do almost nothing IN the window, per rules of the building (apartment) except a few floral arrangements. The drapes cannot be drawn closed for several reasons, mostly light and pet related. (also the AC in Summer)
I have thought I could make some sort of floral container, the back of which could be full length and have the back of it the random seeming block effect. while the outward facing would be only six inches tall and have floral stuff. The back could be even ?? twenty inches tall! Which would do a lot of good. Sadly I am super lazy until I get myself motivated... But maybe someday. Then I could also make similar (seemingly random I know they are a math based design) random block covers for the 'below the window' areas. Again sadly there has to be the space for the inwall air conditioning unit built in. Though I could see making something freestanding to the sidesand partially covering the intake area..
Then above... It would need to be something braced from the side shelving and not attached to the wall, going above the giant window.
Add in some 'sculpture' like random block things and I think the window could be 'helped'. All that takes time, effort... But the ideas are pretty solid IMO.

On oddity of 'first reflection' is my speakers (Magenpan 20.7) are coincidentally angled in such a manner they are perfectly 'edge on'  to the point of first reflection! So that is kind of taken care of automatically.
There is NO POSSIBILITY of doing anything to the ceiling.

The wall behind the listening position is several feet back, and broken up. That is it goes much further back to the entry door. Then a space 3 feet wide exactly centered several feet behind the listening chair for two closets one to entry hall, one to kitchen, which kitchen is the other side of the back space. So by design the behind wall is broken up rather well (And actually part of setting the speakers location was to get them in the spot of being 1/5 AND 1/7 of the distances to the back wall/closet wall) That central back wall into the room has a framed art and a low bookshelf. bordered by twin floor lamps.

The side walls are a 'overstuffed' loveseat to the right, and the Plasma TV stand with several DVD players, CD changer under the TV to the left. Both 'start' back from the speakers three to four feet. (best can be done in the space I have)

Between the speakers is a low sling leather open design chair It slides forward,(tilting the back to about a 60 degree angle) and is set to let the AC unit behind just peek over it. This chair also hides the amplifier behind the chair. The back of the chair is about  twelve to eighteen inches behind the speaker plane, but the bottom extends past the speaker plane slightly. The seat back is 30" tall.. front is about 13" to 16" high the arms are bent wood with only a thin leather pad. And the closest edge  of them to the speakers is still 14" away. So for the plus of the chair appearance I think it takes away very little from the soundstage. (vs most in between stereo racks)
Considering the speakers are 80" tall...

All I have to say.

oops. My listening (ear) position is about  eight feet from the speakers.
Oh, and the floor is suspended wood, with wall to wall carpet and pad
And finally being in an 'over 55' apartment complex I do need to worry about bass . Thus one additional reason for liking Magnepans.. the bass travels way less THROUGH walls than any box speaker

[Ola_S]

Speakers and room makes up for 90% of the end result! The problem is that acoustic treatment of a room is not trivial. People often dismiss acoustic treatment because they end up with an "overdamp" room. It is naturally not overdamped but wrongly damped (base absorption is missing), those rooms are very unpleasant to listen in. When I build a house I will hire the same guy that constructed my loudspeakers to design my room, then I know the end result will be great. A friend of mine just did this and even though his electronics is much cheaper than mine, the end result is much better (same speakers). The room is really really important and no power cord in the world could change that.

[JLM]

You're right on G E!  Most audiophiles tend to "over gear" for the given room and won't admit it.  That's when audiophiles should turn to headphones.  IMO after speakers, the room is the second most important component.

Ola_S your right on too!  Bass damping is not easily achieved.  I use GIK 244 panels (that used to be called 'full range' but now are designated as bass range use).  Keep in mind that very few speaker designers know much about room acoustics.  I always recommend folks read Floyd Toole's "Sound Reproduction" to learn how speakers/rooms interact and the need for multiple subs (versus full bass main speakers).

Room shape and size are very hard to change.  Bigger is better in nearly all cases, but shape is more important.  Too bad you had an "off" experience G E, but 13 x 15 x 9 isn't quite ideal in my mind.  My room is 8 x 13 x 21 (Fibonacci ratios) and works well except for width/length bass peaks (54 and 86 Hz) which are inherent to the room dimensions.  In fact my room is very similar to Earl Geddes'.  Unfortunately even if you have spare space in the basement, most only allow for 7 ft ceilings which limits room sizes when following ideal ratios. 

Beyond room shape and size are domestic factors: sharing the room with family (limited hours of availability); lack of acoustic isolation (going out and incoming); inability to have a proper speaker/listening position setup (unless you have small speakers/light chair); WAF regarding treatments (a few can be customized to help with that).  Fortunately I have a dedicated, well insulated, fully treated room.  Note that when we built 15 years ago we were moving away from my kids, my family, and my job so I demanded a man cave.  It was a win/win - it took up a chunk of what otherwise would have been additional storage space that wifey would have filled with boughten junk which we've gotten along just fine without. 

[Grit]

I know the OP didn't want to hear about WAF, but for those of us with a shared space where others put a premium on their taste in aesthetics, acoustic treatments can be challenging. That being said, I've experienced a room that went from treated to untreated and it certainly makes a difference. I'm in the process of selecting a new home right now. We'll have to give the nod to location again (keeping one parent super close to children's schools), so making/selecting a dedicated listening space just isn't an option this time. Maybe in the next house, I'll be in JLM's spot and have the option to demand a dedicated listening room. In the meantime, once we get settled in, I hope to convince my better half to allow some acoustical treatments. The last ones I saw allowed for art (or whatever you choose) to be printed on them. I'm hoping that giving her some creative license to appearance will allow some latitude in design and placement.

[poseidonsvoice]

Thanks G.E. for starting a thread about a good problem most folks have....

Thank you Elizabeth for your very detailed descriptions. Despite being well written, I have a hard time visualizing your listening space. Do you mind taking several pictures and posting them here? I am sure it would be quite illustrative to show others as each listener's space is unique and different.

Best,
Anand.

[ragg987]

Great thread, the room is a major factor and I agree that a well-treated room will yield more improvement than any power cord, however I think it is incorrect to say that room + speakers account for 90%. In my view the room has the biggest influence, once you get this improved the other factors (speakers amps sources cords) can then perform their best rather than be limited by the room. And at the end the whole is a "system".

I am fortunate enough to have recently built my own house and have a dedicated audio and cinema room in the basement. The room dimensions are part-optimised to reduce rooms modes, and I have a dedicated power supply to the room with 15A (240v) sockets and 6mm2 mains spur cabling.

Soon after moving in I unpacked my equipment and set it up in the bare room, (plastered walls and ceiling over board and wooden flooring). Only soft furnishing was a listening chair, plus a stack of boxes and packing materials from the move.

Unsurprisingly, the sound was terrible. Shrill and echoey and painful to listen to.

I have since built floor-to-ceiling bass absorbers and placed then in the 4 corners, as well as placed bass-traps / absorption at first reflection point from the front speakers. Together with tuning the speaker and subs placement and toe-in, crossover, phase, listening position and other such I now have much-improved sound. You can "hear" the difference just by walking into the quiet room - there is a stillness and serenity that is not there in any other room in the house.

At some point I intend to build acoustic diffusers for the rear wall.

Having improved the room I found I was no longer satisfied with the sound from my home-built PC to the Bryston SP3 over HDMI. I had previously been very happy with this setup, in our old lounge. I have since played with power cords as well as switch to a SOTM audio streamer to my SP3 over USB. The audible differences are large - I would say the room improvements have helped me to hear this.

[ragg987]

I got kicked out out of the current cable argument thread for suggesting we argue about something else   

Yes well cables do make a difference, in my view. Cannot explain the science, but I can hear it.

[Elizabeth]

Sorry no pictures.
Yes WAF factor.. I am the WAF, so for me, I agree plenty of the 'treated' rooms look absolutely hideous. I went as far as I wanted. The ideas of stuff for the picture window would have to have some appearnce quotient, or never see the light of day.
That my living room is really mainly a listening room is true, but turning it into some scene from a SciFi movie? Not gonna happen.

[G E]

WAF possible solution

https://www.gikacoustics.com/?product_cat=acoustic-art-panels&s=&post_type=product

You can even use your own pix !

no connection to the company but they have a forum on AC.

[G E]

I've been looking into diffusion and there are quite a few angles to consider... hmm.. I made a funny...

The back wall would be most likely location but my listening position is only a few feet away.  Depending on the "Q", I should be 4-6 feet our from it.

I'll need to run some questions by Real Traps and GIK and see if this is worth pursuing.

With all my absorption ( a total of 24 OC 703 panels, 12 of which are doubled and stacked in floor to ceiling corner bass traps) I have a pretty good sounding room. 

And it is far from a dead sounding room.  It's a neat sounding room when I walk in with nothing playing.

Always looking to take it to the next level.

I'll double check my reflection point coverages, I've tweeked speaker placement last week.  Also am considering ceiling surface treatment.  Not getting more absorption, just reallocating.

ge

[Big Red Machine]

Over and over I have learned my lesson. Measure 62% back from the front wall and plant your seat there. Then set up the speakers for best sound relative to your seat.

And diffusion is under-rated. It gets sent to the back walls and away from first reflection points. I do the opposite and have found it to make all the difference. You still need absorption for bass and reflections. But those reflections can be secondary.

Sad story: I recently removed all my ceiling treatments because I was sure I would sell the house soon and I wanted to make the room slightly more normal than dedicated. So all the diffusers and panels came down. I cannot even go in the room to listen as it is terribly screechy and obnoxious without the ceiling treatments. I wasn't expecting such a terrible result but it really is embarrassing to listen to. Now, if I stay, they go back up of course.

[G E]

Nice looking room BigRedMAchine!

No doubt its a great place to spend quality music time.

[G E]

Has anyone compared differences in panel bass trap panels mounted across perpendicular walls vs cylindrical ones?

I have the former and was idly wondering if a construction cylinder stuffed full of OC703 would be better?

Assume 7 1/2 feet tall in each case.

[Tyreman]

I have managed a good balance here, wife doesn't mind the hobby, I'm lucky
 
got 2' x 4' foot panels at first reflection points then at rear of room each corner(across the corners 4' upright)
additional panels below the front window and behind drapes
Speakers on the long wall in front of front room window
coffee table out of the way finally
acoustic triangle works really good here
seating out from back wall about 30"/speakers out from front wall about 15" to cab rear
room is about 22' x12'
Rooms seem about the biggest factor ................if you have couches and stuff partially blocking speakers not so good
depends to what your dealt with