Understanding speaker impedance and Ohm's? 4-16 Ohms? In specific the SET 400.

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Brett Buck

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You're reading everything correct.
Headroom is EXACTLY what I am looking for. I was a little confused by the earlier statement by DB Cooper, saying the 400 would need the snubbing resistors more than the 120. I wasn't really following that.

I have ran the ZU's with 60 watts of power before and it's not enough. The ZU's love heavy doses of power and current.

     If you are dissipating some/half of it with "snubbing resistors", I can see why.

    Brett

mick wolfe

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The snubbing resistors are in parallel with the speaker load. Since we're talking about the 16 ohm Zu speaker in question, the proper value snubbing resistor ( or resistors) would lower the speaker's impedance closer to the 8 ohm range if that is the desired goal. This in effect has the amp putting out its original power rating into 8 ohms.  As an additional bonus, it also smooths the impedance curve.  Without the resistors, both the 120 and 400 would only be 30 watts and 100 watts respectively into the 16 ohm Zu speaker. If the OP chooses not to use them, yet still wants maximum power and headroom, then the 400 is the logical choice.

I.Greyhound Fan

Go with the SET 400 over the 120.  While both are great amps as I reviewed both, I prefered the 400 at loud volumes on 86db speakers.  Plus, you will be future proofed it you ever decide to get less efficient speakers.  A plus with the 16ohm speakers, Frank said the 400 will put out 100 watts of class A power.

Brett Buck

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The snubbing resistors are in parallel with the speaker load. Since we're talking about the 16 ohm Zu speaker in question, the proper value snubbing resistor ( or resistors) would lower the speaker's impedance closer to the 8 ohm range if that is the desired goal. This in effect has the amp putting out its original power rating into 8 ohms.  As an additional bonus, it also smooths the impedance curve.  Without the resistors, both the 120 and 400 would only be 30 watts and 100 watts respectively into the 16 ohm Zu speaker. If the OP chooses not to use them, yet still wants maximum power and headroom, then the 400 is the logical choice.

    So you want the amp to put out the original power rating, but then use the extra power to heat up a resistor?

      Brett

srb

A plus with the 16ohm speakers, Frank said the 400 will put out 100 watts of class A power.

What he said was that the SET 400 will output 100W into a 16Ω load.

It's a Class A/B amplifier and the first few watts (5W? 10W?) are biased as Class A before transitioning into Class A/B at higher wattages.

When he said that "the amp will be running Class A almost all of the time, too", I believe that was in the context of a high-sensitivity 101dB speaker spending a majority of the time in those first few Class A watts.

But not 100W of Class A power!   ;)   

I.Greyhound Fan

What he said was that the SET 400 will output 100W into a 16Ω load.

It's a Class A/B amplifier and the first few watts (5W? 10W?) are biased as Class A before transitioning into Class A/B at higher wattages.

When he said that "the amp will be running Class A almost all of the time, too", I believe that was in the context of a high-sensitivity 101dB speaker spending a majority of the time in those first few Class A watts.

But not 100W of Class A power!   ;)

Whoops, I hadn't read that for a while since it was posted.  My mistake.  But my point still stands that it will be running much of the time in class A.  My Pass X250 amp (which runs in Class A for the first 20-24 wpc or so) stays in Class A with my Magnepan 1.6's (86db sensitivity) almost 100% of the time even at loud levels.  The meter on the front of the amp tells you when it leaves Class  A.  :)

mick wolfe

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    So you want the amp to put out the original power rating, but then use the extra power to heat up a resistor?

      Brett

If you really want a more technical explanation (or any related issues) of 20W snubbing resistors and their use with Zu speakers, I suggest you give Zu a call. Or a least read the chart and graphs on the DIY section of their website. Aside from that, the OP's goal was to have enough available power as to eliminate the use of snubbing resistors anyway.

AvsFan

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If you really want a more technical explanation (or any related issues) of 20W snubbing resistors and their use with Zu speakers, I suggest you give Zu a call. Or a least read the chart and graphs on the DIY section of their website. Aside from that, the OP's goal was to have enough available power as to eliminate the use of snubbing resistors anyway.

Exactly. And after a lot of conversations and messages with Tommy, over at at The Digital Amplifier Company. Which he dives deep into numbers and voltage and peaks and dips and so on. Most of the time, I don’t even know what he is talking about, I just nod my head. 😆

But from the specs I showed him on the Zu Soul Supremes and the specs on my current DAC Golden Cherry Monoblocks. He basically stated that if those amps don’t get it done, then something is seriously wrong.

Brett Buck

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You're reading everything correct.
Headroom is EXACTLY what I am looking for. I was a little confused by the earlier statement by DB Cooper, saying the 400 would need the snubbing resistors more than the 120. I wasn't really following that.

I have ran the ZU's with 60 watts of power before and it's not enough. The ZU's love heavy doses of power and current.

   400 could probably *tolerate* larger "snubbing resistors" AKA space heaters. The speakers *are not seeing any more current* than they would without the resistors, which means your resistor likes lots of current, too.

   I am curious what kind and rating of power resistor you are using for "snubbing" purposes - maybe 8 ohms/200 watts? I was unaware that you would get pure 100-200-watt resistors without making them yourself, all that I have seen are wirewounds. But obviously you wouldn't use that that, given that they are also dandy inductors.

    Brett

aln

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From ZU
« Reply #29 on: 17 Aug 2020, 06:32 pm »

mick wolfe

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Re: From ZU
« Reply #30 on: 17 Aug 2020, 07:29 pm »
https://www.zuaudio.com/diy/loading25r

Thank you for posting that link. I'll also add that the 25 ohm/20 watt snubbing resistors on my Zu Omen DW's never get any warmer than room temperature. This regardless of how long I listen. Amp is a P-P 60 watter. (KT88 based)

avahifi

An AVA SET 400 amp just does not care what the speaker load is.  Power is maximum unclipped output voltage (squared) divided by load resistance.

The AVA SET 400 puts out 43V RMS into any rational load, the calculated output power is dependent upon load resistance rating.

Adding parallel resistors across the load dies not increase the output power, it just heats the resistor.

For your info, the 8 ohm 200W load resistors we use for internal testing are about the size of a clinched fist, epoxied to old Hafler heat sinks.

If the 25W rated resistors mentioned above are not getting warm, the power output the system is delivering In normal use is likely less then 5W.

Brett Buck

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Re: From ZU
« Reply #32 on: 18 Aug 2020, 03:04 pm »
Thank you for posting that link. I'll also add that the 25 ohm/20 watt snubbing resistors on my Zu Omen DW's never get any warmer than room temperature. This regardless of how long I listen. Amp is a P-P 60 watter. (KT88 based)

That just means you aren't putting out much power under normal circumstances. Use your "60 watt" amplifier at full output and your resistor will be nearly glowing red hot, and  will be getting far too hot to touch long before that. Maybe 40% of your power is going into the resistor and coming out as heat - electricity isn't magic.

But the parameters indicated, at *best*, turn your 60 watt amplfier into about a 40 watt amplifier - which is why you might think you want a bigger amplifier. Of course, since this resistor is probably wirewound, you have also added another reactive element in parallel with your reactive speaker, making the load more complex that it was, and more prone to varying with frequency, unless it just magically happens to work out. I say "magically" because you probably have no idea what sort of reactance your resistor really has nor that that particular value will compensate the reactance of the speaker. That's the same principle as a Zobel network, which is usually just a theoretical idea since you never know enough about the speaker or amp to properly design it.

      If it was just a pure resistor (which it almost certainly isn't), then maybe it does even out the load slightly, but if it's 16 ohms nominal, you aren't likely to run out of current from the amp, so you are better off not shunting some if it off. 16 ohms and varying is probably easier on a properly designed amplifier than 10 ohms and varying slightly less. On a marginal design, it make make it more stable, but you would be better off with a more stable amplifier and no parasitic load. You can probably assume your AVA amp is not going to need external resistors to remain stable!

   So, I am having a bit of trouble understanding what is being accomplished by putting in shunt resistors.

       Brett


p.s. Look at it a different way. You might consider what it means to have a more powerful amplfier. Since they are rated into a fixed 8 ohm (resistive) load, the power rating and volume is directly proportional to the output *voltage* Putting a resistor on the output can only suppress the output voltage, because the amplifier impedance is certainly more than zero, more current, more sag. Having powerful current drive tends to reduce the source impedance, reducing the sag. Your shunt resistor can only reduce the voltage seen by the speaker, reducing the power.
     

mick wolfe

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An AVA SET 400 amp just does not care what the speaker load is.  Power is maximum unclipped output voltage (squared) divided by load resistance.

The AVA SET 400 puts out 43V RMS into any rational load, the calculated output power is dependent upon load resistance rating.

Adding parallel resistors across the load dies not increase the output power, it just heats the resistor.

For your info, the 8 ohm 200W load resistors we use for internal testing are about the size of a clinched fist, epoxied to old Hafler heat sinks.

If the 25W rated resistors mentioned above are not getting warm, the power output the system is delivering In normal use is likely less then 5W.

Thank you Frank. You hit the nail on the head. The speakers ( Zu Omen DW)  are efficient enough that  they probably see less than 5 watts aside from dynamic peaks. The 60 watt tube amp in question still offers plenty of ease and headroom with the resistor in place. This also may be due to the fact the resistor significantly smooths the Zu speaker's impedance curve. ( as their chart shows)  Thanks again for your input.