[audiomagnate]

I will take delivery of these monsters tonight. They were updated at some point by Brian Cheney. The original Dynapleats were replaced with BG RD50's and the crossover changed to accommodate the change. The tweeters are Aurum Cantus ribbons and I'm pretty sure the originals were spiral ribbons.


I bought them without hearing them first and am curious about a few things:
1. Has anyone heard this version and the originals and if so what are the differences?
2. If I want to return them to stock, is a crossover schematic available?
3.There is very little info out there on these speakers so if anybody has any technical or information such as crossover points and slopes, I would like to know that as well.

Thanks

[Shear Bliss VMPS]

You have done nothing! So relax and enjoy those awesome speakers. Sure Brian got them pretty nice sounding also, so no worries just enjoy them.

DW

[Stimpy]

Don't worry.  I agree with Bliss, you've got nothing to worry about!  Plus, I wish I had your worries!!!   

So, basically, someone owned this type of VMPS speaker:




And turned it into these!




This was an upgrade mod offered by Brian for the FF1 and FF3 speakers.  Heck, Brian probably personally performed the mod.  The original Dynapleat mids are removed and sealed off, the tweeters are upgraded, and the new mids are added as wings to the main cabinet.  BG mids were the early option.  A bank of the Sonigistix-Monsoon planar mids were a later option.   As such, I wouldn't sweat it.  Or even worry about the schematic (which are hard to come by).  It'll be good.  All you need is space and a lot of power.  Space to give the speakers room to breathe, and a good amount of power, because those woofers and the BG mid can handle a lot of watts.  Just be sure to adjust the passive radiators too, to match your room and equipment, and you'll be fine.

[revg1952]

I have to agree with  Stimpy and Bliss
those are the nicest mods and upgrades I ever seen to a FF1
Feel blessed and Enjoy Them
 Revg1952

[audiomagnate]

The crossovers are huge and use very high quality parts but I'm afraid they weren't changed for the BG's - there's no notch filter - which is very audible. They're definitely going to need some work. I think a Behringer DCX2496 is in my future.

They came with a Marchand XM144-1 one way (low pass @244Hz crossover) for the woofers. Good news is that all the drivers work great, the bad news is that they sound pretty awful, with very peaky mids. I ordered a DCX2496 so I'm sure I'll get them sounding right soon.

A few things seem a little odd though. There is no low pass or notch filter on the BG, and no bleed resistors for the much more sensitive Arcum Cantus tweeters. I have lots of amps to play with so I'm sure I'll be able to flatten them out with my new 2496. I'm guessing these were a DIY upgrade by the previous owner, there's no way Brian would be happy with the way these sound.

Hey Stimpy, thanks for the pics. That's exactly what these were. Do you own those original FF1's? I wonder if they have the same super simple crossover as mine, just two compound caps and two coils.

[Stimpy]

The crossovers are huge and use very high quality parts but I'm afraid they weren't changed for the BG's - there's no notch filter - which is very audible. They're definitely going to need some work. I think a Behringer DCX2496 is in my future.

Well crap!  Sorry to hear that.  I was hoping these would be turn-key, ready for listening.  Bummer.

I also had the pdf file, with the details of the Zobel circuit, needed to tame the BG peak.  It used to be available on the BG Radia/Bohlender site.  No more, since their demise.  And of course, I can't find the file.  I'll keep looking...  Parts Express might know the details, since they were a BG dealer...

They came with a Marchand XM144-1 one way (low pass @244Hz crossover) for the woofers. Good news is that all the drivers work great, the bad news is that they sound pretty awful, with very peaky mids. I ordered a DCX2496 so I'm sure I'll get them sounding right soon.

Well, that's good.  No dead unable-to-replace-drivers is nice.  Hope the 2496 works out.

A few things seem a little odd though. There is no low pass or notch filter on the BG, and no bleed resistors for the much more sensitive Arcum Cantus tweeters. I have lots of amps to play with so I'm sure I'll be able to flatten them out with my new 2496. I'm guessing these were a DIY upgrade by the previous owner, there's no way Brian would be happy with the way these sound.

Odd.  I didn't realize an owner could updates these personally.  I guess I thought Brain was always involved.  I'd love to get a set of the empty cabinets that Pat has.  I have enough of the Monsoon mids to build my own!

Hey Stimpy, thanks for the pics. That's exactly what these were. Do you own those original FF1's? I wonder if they have the same super simple crossover as mine, just two compound caps and two coils.

No, I actually don't own any VMPS speakers.  I'm a Poser...!     I have two pair of the Monsoon tower speakers.  So, fairly close.  I wish I could find some crossover schematics!  I'd rework my Monsoon crossovers into a VMPS crossover. 

And Brian's crossovers would look fairly simple.  His were Series crossovers, first order 6dB designs.  Not a lot of parts required.  But, cleaner, phase-coherent sound, as a result.  Need room to breathe though.  And a little less tolerant of high power, but solid designs.

[audiomagnate]

For now I'm using them for subs electronically crossed over at 50 Hz while I wait for the Behringer to arrive. They make incredible subwoofers, especially combined with my JBL 2245 infinite baffle sub.

I got curious and carefully peeled off the foam from the front baffle. Twin tweets (why 2?) look to be Aurum Cantus G3's although the labels have been removed. The front baffle, which was of course modified when the update was done, is incredible. They look like solid oak lined with two layers of 2/3" MDF. No wonder they were so hard to get into place!   

There is no third woofer or passive radiator on the bottom, that hole has been plugged too.

[Stimpy]

For now I'm using them for subs electronically crossed over at 50 Hz while I wait for the Behringer to arrive. They make incredible subwoofers, especially combined with my JBL 2245 infinite baffle sub.

Well that works!  Making the best of things!

I got curious and carefully peeled off the foam from the front baffle. Twin tweets (why 2?) look to be Aurum Cantus G3's although the labels have been removed. The front baffle, which was of course modified when the update was done, is incredible. They look like solid oak lined with two layers of 2/3" MDF. No wonder they were so hard to get into place!

   

Brian didn't believe in cheating the laws of physics!  Big cabinets for Big Bass.

There is no third woofer or passive radiator on the bottom, that hole has been plugged too.

That's not good.  Those woofers are designed to be ported, and need the passive radiator.  Since they're FF1's, I'd think they need a 12" passive.  Or, with the size of the cabinets, you might have the depth for a side-mounted 15" passive.  Like the final version of the RM50's.

[audiomagnate]

Those look awesome, and it appears they used FF1 cabinets. Hmm...maybe I'll convert my FF1's to something similar when I have some time, but first I'll give them a chance when the Behringer arrives. In the mean time they do make awesome "helper" subs for my 2245 infinite baffle sub. There is a bass null at my listening position, and because an IB is obviously immovable (you can't properly EQ away a null IMO), I couldn't do anything about it. Last night I moved the the FF1's around (crossed over at 50 Hz) and got rid of the null. Even without the passive radiator, they are rock solid down to 22 Hz, with usable output a bit below that.

After some baffle measurements it looks like two Neo10's with one of the Aurum Cantus G3 in the middle will fit perfectly in between the the two woofers in D'Appolito configuration. The BG RD50 hanging on the side just doesn't do it for me, esthetically, or sonicly.  I like to listen at about 9 feet from the speakers, and that huge panel, and its distance from the other drivers just isn't working for me. They will be a kind of VMPS tribute speaker, inspired by the FF1, RM50 and RM40.

The Neo panels aren't even close to flat, so the DCX2496 or something similar is a must IMO. Stay tuned. Neo10's are pretty scarce, but I'm on the hunt.

[Stimpy]

Christie Digital is manufacturing (or having them made), the BG Neo drivers again.  Parts Express is selling all of the series, and they are in stock.  Even the Neo10.

https://www.parts-express.com/bohlender-graebener-neo10-planar-transducer--264-750

It took well over a year to get the drivers back into stock, after Christie bought BG.  So, if you're serious, I wouldn't wait too long to pick up your Neo10s.  They might not be around for long.

[audiomagnate]

They're all dialed in with my new Behringer DCX2496 and sounding lovely, lovely lovely. I have to say, at the risk of insulting VMPS fans, that the stock crossovers don't even come close to making these speakers sound right. Brian used a DCX2496 at his live vs recorded demos, which says a lot. The sweet spot is tiny, (almost Quad-like) because the vertical dispersion of the double Aurum Cantus G3SI's is pretty much nonexistent, but oh do they sound good! A proper passive crossover (which I just might build if I find the time and energy) for these would have at least fourteen components, not four like the stock crossover. The Behringer is set for L/R4 on all 4 filters, crossovers points are 238 and 3850 Hz. I EQ'd out the cavity resonance peak in the BG's and the 14K-22k peak in the G3SI's and did some room tuning. Next step is to bring in my JBL 2245 infinite baffle fireplace sub.

[Stimpy]

So, are you using the 2496 as an EQ, or crossover, or both?  I guess, triamping too? 

Nice looking room as well.  Care to share the rest of the gear?  Glad to hear that you've tweaked the system into shape. 

And don't be too hard on Brian; even he knew his analog crossovers were a compromise.  Though, they were the best for what they were.  But, that's why he released his digital edition loudspeakers, specifically for the 2496, which completely bypassed the internal crossovers.  I wonder if you could get the 2496 update, that was designed for your speakers?  Was there a way to share the file, from someone with the same speakers and Behringer?

[audiomagnate]

updates:

>I removed the grille cloth from the mid panels and was shocked to find six Monsoon/Level 9 panels in a line instead of the BG RD50 I expected.
>I have moved the speakers further apart and further into the room and my listening position has moved back even further, about twelve feet.
>The mid/tweet crossover has been lowered to 2.3 kHz/LR4.

As far as equipment goes for digital (mostly 24 bit)  I usually take the digital output of a Chromecast Audio and send it to the digital input of a Behringer DCX2496 and then on to 3 BGW 620Bs. I split the analog LF output of the Behringer and send it to an analog 50 Hz/LR4 low pass filter into yet another BGW and my subs (yes, I'm "quadamping" if that's a word). For analog or HT I use an  SAE MKXXX preamp, and my Sony PS-X5/V15II or my Pioneer F91 tuner. My HT setup is a little too complicated to go into here. 

I used my ears and REW 5.1 software to set up the DCX. They sound like big Quad 57's that go low and play loud.

 

[Stimpy]

You've got baby Super Tower III / SRE's...!  That's TOTL VMPS...!  Nice, and don't consider it a compromise either.  Brian liked the Monsoon drivers better than the BG Series he used prior to the 8" panels.

http://pointillistic.com/vmps-audio/ST3.htm



Those Monsoon drivers require quite a bit of toe-in too.  So, from the picture, the speakers look like they're properly set up. 

One other thing, did you resolve the passive radiator issue, or is that why the subs are there?   

Good job!   

[audiomagnate]

Interesting. I'm not worried about the missing passive radiator because the extreme bottom is handled by my fireplace infinite baffle 18" JBL (2245) and a Monitor Audio FSB200. I wish my tweeters and mids were closer together like the Super Tower 111.

[audiomagnate]

Crossover update: I am now crossing over to the ribbons even lower, 1.98K, still using LR/4. This is a little bit below the 2.3K minimum that Aurum Cantus recommends (and WAY below the 7k Brian used), but it helps improve image stability when I move around a bit in the sweet spot and sounds more natural on vocals. The recommendation is for a single unit using a 2nd order filter, so I think I'm OK with two units and 24 db/octave. I'm still crossing over from the woofers to the Monsoons at 238 Hz LR/4, which is pretty much the same setup Brian used with the Marchand. I have also added a first order Butterworth high pass to the woofer section at 50 Hz. Below 50 Hz is handled by my JBL 2245 infinite baffle sub. The speakers have been moved a little further into the room; the front baffle is five feet from the wall behind the speakers. Listening distance is 12 feet from the Monsoons. Any closer and driver integration becomes a problem.

My buddy is in the high end furniture manufacturing business so the next upgrade is better looking, lower diffraction "wings" for the Monsoons made from an exotic hardwood. I'm also looking pretty closely at the Mundorf AMT27 tweeter as a possible replacement for the FST's.